The taser is just a tool

[TheeBadOne]

Man Dies After Disturbance Involving Police

Police: Man Charged Officers With Weapon

FORT WORTH, Texas -- A Fort Worth police officer is on administrative leave after a overnight shooting left one man dead.

Police say the incident started as a domestic disturbance between a man and his mother and ended in the death of 31-year-old Gary Elschulz.

The shooting happened just before 10:00 Sunday night.

Police say the man lived at the house with his mother and the two apparently got into an argument and the man grabbed a knife and went into the bedroom.

Police representative Lt. Jesse Hernandez said the officers let the man know that they were there and ordered him to drop the knife. Elschulz then jumped at them and began threatening them.

Initially, one officer pulled out a Taser, but it malfunctioned. Another officer then fired on Elshulz two times.

Elshulz was transported to John Peter Smith hospital where he was later pronounced dead.

http://www.nbc5i.com/news/2689418/detail.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I thought of the Cincinnati/Jones shooting thread when I read this one. The Taser is a tool, that's all it is. No magic, no finger of God, just a tool created by men, and a single shot tool at that. If the 1st shot doesn't work...... That's why it should only be used (as in this case) with lethal force back up from another Officer.
Taser failure can come in many forms.

1) Bad cartridge

2) Batteries

3) Wire/probe hangs up (in loose clothing/or environmental debris

4) Capacitor failure (the "guts" of the Taser)

5) Unknown

Of course, this is not an exclusive list.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Cincinnati Mayor (flaming liberal and panderer to the black vote) is calling for Cincy to spend a coll $1million on Tasers now. My understanding is that Cincinnati police had them in the past and sent them back because they performed so poorly.

 

[Waitone]

My understanding is that Cincinnati police had them in the past and sent them back because they performed so poorly

Perhaps the city should mandate the wearing of light tee shirts by all badguys and potential badguys just to make sure the taser has a chance to work properly.


Has anyone out there seen a successful taser demo where the target was wearing heavy denim or leather jacket. Better yet, has the taser ever worked on a target wearing a down filled vest?

 

[TheeBadOne]

Has anyone out there seen a successful taser demo where the target was wearing heavy denim or leather jacket. Better yet, has the taser ever worked on a target wearing a down filled vest?

I've seen the Taser foiled by a standard cotton short sleeve T-shirt. When the Taser works, it works very well. When it doesn't, it does not do a thing (except perhaps place the user in danger now that the subject is closer and the users hands are occupied by a useless spent one shot tool).

 

[DougCxx]

Tasers and stun-guns have never worked.
The only places claiming their effectiveness are the ones selling them.
And a taser is just a stun-gun that fires darts.
------
The great uneducated like to compare a stun-gun to "getting shocked by a wall socket" or "getting shocked by lightning".
Problem is, it isn't anywhere near the same thing:
The top-end Taser delivers 28 watts, most stun-guns deliver <15 watts.
A (US) wall socket can deliver 1200-1500 watts,
and of course a bolt of lightning can deliver millions of watts.
Pretty sparks and crackly noises simply don't mean jack-****.
-------
If you insist on playing Buck Rogers with your life, then go to a farm store and spend ~$50 for a Hot Shot cattle prod--"cheap" by typical stun-gun standards and their output voltages are much lower, but they use more+larger batteries than stun-guns do (6-"C" batteries compared to a stun-gun's usual single 9-volt) and they run hot enough to leave burn marks on human skin--something stun-guns will not do.
~

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

The new Tasers, specifically the M&X series are quite reliable. Yes, they are just tools, and can fail like any tool. The majority of the time they don't. As to clothing, the Taser will generally handle up to two and a half inches. I have personally seen good effects through a heavy canvas Carhart jacket. I expect that results will improve in coming years because Taser International has just put out an improved cartridge, with a slightly longer hook, and a heavier probe.

If you would like to see a Taser vs. a down coat,

http://www.taser.com/pages/video/toronto01.html

DougCxx,
Respectfully, you don't know what your talking about. The new M&X series Taser operate at 26 watts not 28, and are extremely effective. I have used them on the street, and had them used on me in classes and demonstrations. they work, subject to the limitations of reliability and connection inherent to any electrical device.

 

[TheeBadOne]

As to clothing, the Taser will generally handle up to two and a half inches.

Actually, it's up to 2 inches Max.

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

Whoops

Sorry about that, your right, TI has revised the number down in their new lesson plan (the 10.0 release). The correct number is 2.25". They still have the 2.5 on page 32, but have dropped down to 2.25 on page 107. I apologize for the confusion.

 

[sendec]

3B1's point is well made. NOTHING works 100% of the time. It is good to see that a backup plan was in place and that the right person ended up injured/dead.

Cincinnati cannot catch a break irregardless of what they do. Frankly, a million dollars for Tasers is worth it if it doesnt result in cops getting hurt and prevents a death.

Tasers dont work on everybody. Neither does OC, mace, batons, tranqiuilizer darts, or bullets, but they each have their place, and generally do more good than harm.

 

[TheeBadOne]

From the newest manuel available on the website, 2 inches.

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

I see a specification sheet, and one other referance on the website that list two, but I don't see the new manual (10.1 is supposed to be out sometime this month). Based upon my personal experiance, I believe that Taser is getting more and more conservative because they want to keep their rather enviable sucess rate from dropping. As I pointed out, I've seen very good results myself, YMMV.

 

[Waitone]

2"

Does that mean the darts will penetrate 2" of clothing, contact the skin, and conduct a charge across the skin?

Let us assume the answer is affirmative. Why are demonstrations which I see feature no shirts or thin shirts. I am not LE, just a taxpaying serf who is increasingly skeptical.

 

[TheeBadOne]

2"

Does that mean the darts will penetrate 2" of clothing, contact the skin, and conduct a charge across the skin?

Let us assume the answer is affirmative. Why are demonstrations which I see feature no shirts or thin shirts. I am not LE, just a taxpaying serf who is increasingly skeptical.

If both barbs are within 2" of the skin they are suppose to still work. Of course when you show a demonstration you want that product to work, why else would you do it? That's why they show t-shirt/no shirt use. I don't blame them, heck that's what I'd do if I was trying to sell them.

 

[cordex]

[a cattle prod will] ... run hot enough to leave burn marks on human skin--something stun-guns will not do.

Never played with a stun gun, have you?

Even a lowly 100k volt stun gun can leave burn marks on skin. It tickles and makes muscles spasm too. Not much else.

 

[TheeBadOne]

100K stun gun? That's pretty high horsepower! LE stun guns are 50K and don't leave true burns, they are called "traction marks" and are like tiny circular hickeys, the size of the round stun prod that touched your skin (like the head of a smaller nail). The traction marks do not require any kind of medical attention/aid and are not painful.

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

What it means is that the ends of both probes need to be within a cumulative (probably ought to make that clear as well) distance of 2 or 2.25 inches (depending upon which source you want to go with) of the skin (not in contact). Although you may or may not have seen them, there have been plenty of demonstrations with more clothing, and some with body armor. Like I already pointed out, its not 100%, but it works very well most of the time.

 

[Penforhire]

It is my opinion that LEO's don't need non-lethal weapons. If you resist an officer armed with a lethal (e.g. gun) or "less-than-lethal" weapon (e.g. baton) you deserve the result. Criminals should not be coddled and LEO's should be able to defend themselves and stop perps in a most definite fashion.

 

[TheeBadOne]

From Taser's web page (link provided)

7. MUST THE PROBES PENETRATE THE BODY TO BE EFFECTIVE?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No. The electrical current will “jump†up to two inches as long as both probes are attached to clothing or skin. At most, only the 3/8-inch needlepoint will penetrate the skin. They have less energy than a spring propelled BB. Both probes need to contact the body or else contact clothing and be within two inches of the body to stop an attacker.

http://www.taser.com/pages/pr/qa.html#7

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

Use of the new Taser is increasing daily because its safe enough to use in far more situations than just a suspect who is armed. Most forward thinking agencies have the Taser placed equivalent to, or immediately above hands on. Thats what TI recommends, and that's what has reduced officer and suspect injuries dramatically in some jurisdictions.

 

[TheeBadOne]

Most forward thinking agencies have the Taser placed equivalent to, or immediately above hands on. Thats what TI recommends, and that's what has reduced officer and suspect injuries dramatically in some jurisdictions.

Agreed. TI has really put together a ton of info/research on their products.

 

[DougCxx]

Tasers and stun-guns are basically children of civil liability laws, NOT functionality. The ultimate convincing argument an LEO can make is that they can kill criminals right here, right now. Somehow "POLICE! STOP OR I'LL PUT LITTLE BURN MARKS ON YOUR SKIN!" just doesn't seem as persuasive.

It is my opinion that LEO's don't need non-lethal weapons.

-I rather agree with this: if I was an LEO, I would rather have one weapon that worked 100% of the time--not a "try this first, it might work" gadget.
--------
I re-iterate: the Taser challenge.
1) You can shoot/touch me in the thigh with any Taser/stungun you want.
2) I can shoot you in the thigh with any .45 pistol I want.
3) A medical professional on hand will then detirmine which of us is most physically disabled.
~

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

DougCxx,
You have a 100% guaranteed effective handgun? Stop the presses! I recommend you return it to the manufacturer at once, so they can make similar pistols for the rest of us.

That nonsense aside, the reason we use the Taser is that, most of the time incapacitates without any lasting injury. So while I have no intention of allowing someone to blow a hole in my leg, I have no doubt as to the Taser's effectiveness. I'm an instructor, and have sucessfully used it on the street. I've seen it work, and work well.

 

[Waitone]

We here on THR poke fun at those who wear tinfoil hats.

From what I gather about tasers, one could envision a tinfoil tee shirt which could be instrumental in defeating said device. Tinfoil too fragile? OK, get a tailor to fashion you a 3 layer tee shirt. Inner and outer layer composed of whatever cloth. Middle layer would be a metallic screen. Any conductor would successfully shun the current around the human body.

 

[cordex]

100K stun gun? That's pretty high horsepower! LE stun guns are 50K and don't leave true burns, they are called "traction marks" and are like tiny circular hickeys, the size of the round stun prod that touched your skin (like the head of a smaller nail). The traction marks do not require any kind of medical attention/aid and are not painful.

It may not have been a true 100k, but that's what the packaging said. I bought it to see what the noise was about. It was not too uncomfortable to apply continually for 5 or 10 seconds on major muscle groups. It did leave "traction marks" you described. I figured they were light burns. They are not nearly as painful as a "real" burn, but they did feel sore for some time afterwards.

If police stun guns are only 50k or are anything like the one I had, then I'd definitely not be comfortable employing one in a serious situation. I don't know how other people would react to it, but if an officer were to use something less than what I've played with on me, he would not slow me down and would be much better off beating me with his baton.

TBO, please tell me that the units that police employ are more effective than the one I had. Otherwise, I think that officers are putting themselves in way too much danger.

 

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

We keep having this conversation...take it from me...

Stunguns are durn worthless! I have it on the authority of direct experience. There's links in my post on that thread to the original threads on The Firing Line where I first documented my experiences with stunguns in detail.


HOWEVER!...


Let me make it perfectly clear that I am NOT talking about Tasers when I say that. Tasers operate at 1 1/2 X the wattage level of "over the counter" stunguns.

That means that although I received repeated shots from a "500,000-volt" stungun, there was no stunning effect, just a lot of non-damaging pain.

Stunguns run about 10 watts typically. Humans run at about 15 watts for neuro-muscular control, so the stungun isn't powerful enough to casually disrupt body function.

Tasers run at 26 watts. They CAN and DO PARALYZE large muscle groups. That doesn't just hurt, it dumps the recipient unceremoniously on the floor to thrash around doing The Fish until the juice stops. There is no question about it. If the connection is made, muscular function and control is disrupted. That could conceivably lead to death if the recipient is unlucky, or all strung out on drugs.

LEO's got legal backing and liability coverage for that sorta thing. The Average Citizen does not.

And a stungun, even the biggest, meanest one a civilian can easily get, simply doesn't even belong in the same sentence as Tasers. Stunguns are nothing but pain-compliance devices.

I will further qualify that I've never been Tasered, but I've seen it done. It's no fun. Looks a lot like a violent siezure or a spasm of some kind.


The attached pic is me 'taking one for the team', since the link to my silly pictures seems to be dead. The operant word is "ouch".