Police Taser, Kill Teen Acting Strangely In Horse Pasture

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sorry, if a LEO is in "fear for his life"......he'll be reaching for his sidearm, not a taser. Being in fear for your life has crossed a line in the sand so to speak.

And being the "alpha male" at the scene of a problem is correct. You don't show up and walk around with your tail between your legs. That said, being the alpha male doesn't mean you have to arrest, taser, pepper spray, etc. It just means being in control of the situation.

If I tell you that you are under arrest and you defiantly stand there I am justified in using any force (except deadly force) to effect that arrest. That force may be physical (hands), mace/pepper spray or taser.
 
If I tell you that you are under arrest and you defiantly stand there I am justified in using any force (except deadly force) to effect that arrest.
Well it appears that in this case, as well as others, the taser amounted to deadly force.
 
People also die from being pepper sprayed, getting into a physical altercation with LEO's, etc.

A Taser is not deadly force, neither is mace/pepper spray.

Read the coroner's reports on them. They either had some underlying medical problem or were on drugs, etc which stressed their system. If your being placed under arrest, you have two options, one easy, one hard. Your choice, you make the decision on how this is done.
 
Don't get me wrong, by no means am I saying that tasers should be taken out of the hands of LEOs. I think they are a useful tool but also have a high risk of abuse. While I also agree that taser deployment is not deadly force per se, there are obvious risks not always recognized, or appreciated by the personnel using them, and at the time of use.
 
Well until LEO's are issued tri-corders so they can scan the person they are about to arrest to determine which method may or may not be used, they have to use what they have.

If a LEO has access to a taser, why would they want to risk getting into a physical fight, spraying mace or pepper spray which may or may not work instead of tasing the person, then being able to walk over and place the cuffs on them?
 
Well, I'm just a citizen, but I have to agree with Steve and Coronach. If I had to control or restrain a subject, I'd prefer any option to going rodeo with him. As has been stated by Steve, Coronach and centac, once you're cheek to cheek with the sumbeech, somone is going to get hurt, possibly both.

It's surely a tragic story, but that boy brought a world of hurt to himself and his loved ones. And let's not forget the officer involved. I don't suspect this will be the high point of her career.
 
If I tell you that you are under arrest and you defiantly stand there I am justified in using any force (except deadly force) to effect that arrest. That force may be physical (hands), mace/pepper spray or taser.

So, if you come up to me, tell me I am under arrest - and I ask you the simple question of "What are you charging me with and why?", and refuse to cooperate until given an answer, you would engage with force ?

Think through your answer carefully here.

Because I have personally witnessed a taser used in not one, but TWO incidents of this nature, and you'll have a hard time justifying to me, and to your superiors, using one under those conditions.

I will also note there is a difference between controlling a situation, and coming in so gung-ho macho that it causes more problems than it solves, and as has been my experience, that's a BIG training issue and problem for most departments.

The weapon itself is an extremely useful and effective alternative to absolute lethal force, or as an option to be preferred instead of other means possibly harmful to both parties - but it's going to get a bad rep when abused so often that people are suspicious of any use of it.

The case in question ? not for me to say, had I been there, probably would have put holes in the guy.

My point is that departments had better address this as a training issue before things get out of hand on both ends of the spectrum, or it will get out of hand, simple as that.

-K
 
Yes, if I walk up to you and tell you that you are under arrest, you are under arrest and I can use whatever force I am justified in using to make that arrest. And contrary to popular myth I don't have to tell you, at the time of the arrest as to why, just the fact that I tell you that your under arrest is sufficient. You refuse and its resisting arrest. You'll be informed as to the charges at an appropriate time, because I'm not going to stand there and argue with you over whether or not you think you shouldn't be arrested.

Use of force when making an arrest is based on several things;
1) the severity of the crime
2) the apparent threat posed by the suspect to officers and others
3) whether the person is resisting arrest
4) whether the person is attempting to flee
5) the use of force is to be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer knowing and dealing with the facts and circumstances in place at the time of the incident

This set of criteria is based upon Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989)

So, if I tell you that you are under arrest, you best be thinking real hard as to how you want this to happen.
 
You can run your mouth as much as you want, but if I think you should be arrested, you will be. Whether you feel pain or not is your decision. :D
 
I fail to understand those who want to make speeches and resist arrest. It can be sorted out later if the officer charged you inappropriately.

I've had folks tell me that if an officer tells them to drop the gun, they won't. They will tell him that they want to unload the gun first and put it down in a manner they see fit for their wonder blaster. Sounds like a good plan to me. :cool:

I want to know if the horses received counseling.
 
Let me get this straight. All a cop has to do is TELL me I'm under arrest, and I have to smile and go with him peacefully, without knowing WHY? Sorry, folks. I ain't buyin' that. Oh, it may be "Case Law" or whatever, but I DO have the RIGHT to know WHY I'm being arrested. Now, you may have the "You're going to jail, no matter what" attitude, but what if the guy you're arresting (and don't "feel" like telling him why) is thinking "I'm NOT going to jail, no matter what"? What then? You'll forget the taser and just shoot him, I reckon. I mean, after all, YOU ARE THE LAW, right?

Why not TELL him/her the information that he/she HAS THE LEGAL RIGHT TO? "I don't have the time", or "I'm not going to stand there and..." just won't cut it, officer(s). That's Bovine Excrement of Grand Design, and it does nothing to further the image of LEOs, at all.

If that's the way LEOs operate in general, I sure hope for your sakes that you guys wear vests. Some people may not be so easy to put in that cruiser.
And, of course, that vest may mean nothing.

Just, FYI. Not advocating violence against Peace Offic -- Oh wait, my fault Law ENFORCEMENT Officers. Nope, not in the least tiny bit.

Simon. :barf:
 
I fail to understand those who want to make speeches and resist arrest. It can be sorted out later if the officer charged you inappropriately.

NO, it can not - not when they process you in, you get officially charged, thrown in the tank and the paperwork gets processed, nope, it's NOT going to get sorted out any time soon.

You see, at that point they've invested X amount of effort into it, and they're *going* to make an issue of it.
One very popular game in case of a bad arrest, and this did this to Chris D, a friend of mine - is to refuse bail and then keep postpoing the trial date every time you refuse to plead guilty - cause once they get that plea, it lets the cop off the hook.

Chris D. did 18 months before they threw that entirely bogus case out, lost his home, his employment and his relationship predictably fell apart, and for what ?
For cooperating with a LEO who misused his authority instead to standing up for his rights - sorry, that's unacceptable to me.

Also, once you're thrown in the tank, the officer can write up the after-action any way he pleases, and it's his word against yours, and since you're now officially a "perp" - well, come on folks.

When an officer stops me, I am going to ask why, in a civil and reasonable fashion - and if he "goes rambo" on me at that point, it will probably get ugly, yes... now if, like the police around here do, he politely informs me of why, and explains what the violation is and his intended action, then I will politely cooperate, sure.

But answering "What am I being stopped and questioned for, Sir?" with "GET ON THE GROUND, NOW! *******", followed by reaching for a weapon of any kind - I personally consider that an unprovoked lethal assault on my person and will respond accordingly.
(and yes, i'm fully aware of the likely consequences, but if the alternative is the total destruction of my life as I know it anyway, as happened to Chris D. - then what would YOU do?)*

When those who's oath and duty is to uphold the law, neither respect nor obey it themselves, the whole system based on that social order falls apart, it would do well for some to remember that they are, in essence an "Officer of the Law" - that means upholding and honoring it, not ramming down people's throats on a pikestaff.

It's that very attitude which provokes incidents that never had to happen, causes extreme civiliant resentment of the police force, discourages cooperation with said police force, and unfortunately costs lives on both sides of the fence.

It's sad that the Taser, which in law enforcement hands can be an effective alternative force, is likely to be banned because of this very attitude that leads to it's misuse - not to mention at some point ridiculous, because if you can't trust someone with a Taser, you shouldn't trust them with a firearm either...

- K


*Note: Most of the time, no matter what the original attempted arrest was for, no matter how blatantly and obviously bogus, once you resist an arrest with violence, you're going to fry no matter what - which leads to some pretty awful incidents due to the law making no effective distinction between resisting a justified arrest, and resisting a bogus arrest by a LEO who wants to hassle you.
 
"If that's the way LEOs operate in general, I sure hope for your sakes that you guys wear vests. Some people may not be so easy to put in that cruiser.
And, of course, that vest may mean nothing."

"But answering "What am I being stopped and questioned for, Sir?" with "GET ON THE GROUND, NOW! *******", followed by reaching for a weapon of any kind - I personally consider that an unprovoked lethal assault on my person and will respond accordingly."

LOLOL.....you guys sure are funny. I wouldn't recommend your choice of action, but then again.....I'm sure you'll have to learn the hard way.
 
LEO = False bravado.

See? HE IS THE LAW! Get in the cruiser like a good little sheep, there ya go, right on in there -- Oh! Watch your head there!

Puhlease. LEOs are hardly the baddest, toughest people out there. And there's one word that'll strike fear into any man: AMBUSH. All it takes is the right phone call, at the right time.

I'll leave the rest up to your imagination...IF you have one.

Why not just talk to the guy? Answer that one, will ya? And, no, being too tired, or not having the "time", or "we'll sort that out downtown" will not cut it. Be honest. It's because YOU ARE THE LAW, isn't it? C'mon. You can tell us. Your friendly neighborhood sheep, right? (Sheesh! Talk about a willing pawn!)

:rolleyes:

Simon.

PS- Nobody's been able to teach me the "hard way" yet. 'Till I find someone who can...bugger off.
 
LOLOL.....you guys sure are funny. I wouldn't recommend your choice of action, but then again.....I'm sure you'll have to learn the hard way.

It's not funny at all, and even less so watching this reaction.

With respect to other LEO's on this board, whom I hope understand what I am trying to get across - it is that exact attitude which is eventually going to deprive police forces of the Taser.

As an officer of the law, you are beholden to obey, enforce, and uphold the law, and while not essentially required - you should revere and honor it, since you've taken oath and dedicated your life to it.

The "well I can do what I please because I have a badge and you don't" stance reflects very badly on the profession as a whole and tends to escalate, rather than defusing situations.

When ego and duty collide, sticking with duty is the honorable course.
What precisely, prevents you from simply answering the question and proceeding with the questioning/arrest ?

This discussion has utterly convinced me that if the Taser remains in service, any use of it should be handled exactly as a weapons discharge, because that level of accountability is going to have to be in place to prevent misuse of the device.

I think it belongs in the service arsenal still, but seeing this certainly convinces me there's going to be problems with any lesser form of accountability.

-K
 
"Puhlease. LEOs are hardly the baddest, toughest people out there. And there's one word that'll strike fear into any man: AMBUSH. All it takes is the right phone call, at the right time."

Ooooooh, your so scary with your "threats" LOLOLOL. I'd be real careful as to what you say, might find someone knocking on your door ;)

LOLOLOL.......some of you should take your act on the road, your hilarious :neener:
 
Steve in PA is just doing some internet chest thumping. If he were actually LE, he would possess skills other than brute force (which he advocates using as a first resort) and would say something to the effect "I'm placing you under arrest for........................"
 
Why not just talk to the guy? Answer that one, will ya?
Cops do talk to people, but if they're getting arrested they are getting arrested. Once there is a need to arrest someone it's not up for debate. The arrest will be done in a manner that minimizes the risk of injury or death to all involved - cops, suspects, and innocent bystanders. The key is minimize, not eliminate, because there is no way to elminate all risk. If a suspect wants to be stupid, and causes the necessary level of force to escalate, well that's the fault of the suspect.

Here's an easy way to avoid having to worry about it, DON'T BREAK THE LAW.
 
not to hop on some "I'm so bad, look how big I am" bandwagon or anything.... but I am a 5'9" 215lb bodybuilder and I would have tazed him too. I do agree somewhat though about women police officers... physical strength is practically a necessity for LEO work, and 99% of women just don't have it... its a genetic thing, not a sexist remark.
 
"Steve in PA is just doing some internet chest thumping. If he were actually LE, he would possess skills other than brute force (which he advocates using as a first resort) and would say something to the effect "I'm placing you under arrest for........................"

Pssst, Riley, I am a LEO, have been for 8 years.

I don't advocate using brute force. Where did I say that? I only said I'm not required to tell you why I am arresting you at this time. Situation dictates this, not any chest thumping. I may tell you, but if I feel it will only lead to further continuation of a problem, such as you arguing about whether or not you should be arrested I won't. I'll just say your under arrest, and if you don't cooperate, then I'll do what is necessary to effect that arrest.
 
Holcomb was later pronounced dead at Akron City Hospital. The Summit County Coroner has not yet determined a cause of death.

This is the second time someone has died in Summit County after being shocked by a Taser gun.

I bet those people ate food sometime before they died, too. "Man dies after eating food" could be the headline. Does that mean that act A caused act B? No. Please note the statement that "The Summit County Coroner has not yet determined a cause of death."

Leroy Pierson, 55, was pronounced dead at Kaiser Hospital in Fontana at 5:45 p.m. Tuesday. He lost consciousness after he was Tasered inside his cell

I bet he pooped that day. Did he die because he went to the bathroom?

Pierson's mother, 75-year-old Dorothy Pierson, believes deputies abused her son, who was not a large man, she said.

"They Tasered him twice. He wasn't no big guy. He only weighed about 150 pounds, and was only 5 feet 8 inches tall," Dorothy Pierson said. "He was Tasered twice. No wonder his heart stopped."

So, Mrs. Pierson, what are your medical credentials? Are you an M.D.? Many medical doctors assert that the taser is safe, how do you know different? Why is it "no wonder" to you that his heart stopped? What makes you qualified to make that statement?


Point to ponder: Why is it that, although tens of thousands of LEOs have been tasered in training, but we can't seem to find one case of a taser training death? Why is it that only perps die? I recall at least one case where a "death after tase-ing" was attributed to cocaine overdose.

The press spins this "horrible taser thing" just like they do the anti-gun argument.
 
Knock on my door?

I don't know Steve, that whole "somebody may be knocking on you door" thing is a little awkward, isn't it? I mean, one could take that as a warning, or one could take that as a threat. I'm sure you meant it as a warning, but either way, I guess I'll burn that bridge if/when I ever get to it.

Does anybody else, especially a LEO, see the problem here? He defends a defenseless position. BECAUSE I SAY SO is the bottom line. Of course they have the convenient excuse of officer/perp/public safety. How is it more dangerous to TELL SOMEONE THE TRUTH, than it is to make the arrest? I don't see how telling someone the truth does anything but make the situation MORE secure. And if the law is unjust, then THEY are absolutely 100% justified in resisting (I'm sure there's "case law" on that, too.).

The SS operated in VERY MUCH the same way, Steve (identically?). But, I'm sure that makes you proud. And, if the concept of being caught in an ambush doesn't worry you (which it does, deep within you, admission or not), it's because you don't understand exactly what takes place to those being ambushed. Not just tactically, but mentally, emotionally and physically. If you've been constipated lately, an ambush will take care of that, Stevo. Just, FYI.

Done with this thread. I'm sick of hearing some of these government pawns try to justify their wrecklessness. "I'm just doing my job.". Please! So were the Nazis, and they loved it just as much as MOST of you guys do. (Denial is the most predictable of human emotions.).

Hasta whenever.

Simon.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top