Discussion in 'Handguns: Revolvers' started by Andy79, Oct 25, 2008.
What do you think about this gun?
I thought it looked pretty cool and may get it for a home gun.
Nice novelty gun, though I'd rather pick up a new Ruger Redhawk in .45 Colt if your intended use is for carry or home defense. .410 shotshells out of a Judge have very little velocity and penetration potential.
The Search Button is our friend:
Has anybody actually chron'd the loads? Or shot them into gelatin? It requires 53 ft/lbs, IIRC, according to the DoD to make a casualty. How much penetration do we need at close ranges, against unarmored subjects? The old FBI 12" was not arrived at scientifically, and is 25+ years old.
I like to shoot Gold-dot 200g's thru mine, the shotshell part is no fun after about a box but, #4's at self-defense range would be rough on a thugs eyesight.
rcmodel - Thanks for the search results I guess I will start there next time
So a considerably older standard, which was arrived at by an even less scientific process, has to be more valid than what the FBI and the majority of law enforcement agencies still demand. Makes perfect sense.
Pretty sure the XX ft-lbs (I thought it was 60-70 ft-lbs) figure to create a casualty has been around since before WWII. And was basically based around a bunch of guys saying "I wouldn't want to be hit with that," until they got to something they wouldn't mind getting hit with.
I have the same thought as I did many years ago when someone at G&A wrote about taking two perfectly good mod. 57's, cutting frames and cylinders to cobble together one .410 out of them. Why?
Now taking two P-08 Lugers to make a 45 acp one, that's another story! And around the same time, 70's-ish.
I've toyed with picking up a short barreled stainless model, and getting some .410 buckshot, and keeping the thing in my car. For the distances from driver out the window, in the case that I couldn't get away, I think it would be a spiffy thing to have. However, it'd live in the car, as I figure it would be better suited for that role, and it'd be there regardless of if I was packing or not (or if my clothing would make getting to my primary piece while driving difficult).
Outside of either that role, or a "farm gun" to take care of snakes or something, it's kind of large for a .45LC-chambered revolvee.
I've got one, a 4" Ultralight. I for sure wouldn't want to be standing on the wrong end of it when it goes off. Winchester (and others) make a nice 3 pellet 00 buckshot load that works right nicely in it. (I've got photos of hits on a man size targets in another thread here somewhere) #4 shot works pretty well to at shorter ranges, which is what this thing is meant for. A face full of that at 10 feet would rather large deterrent I would think.
My first time firing it in 45 Colt I was at the plate machine at 15 yards. 5 rounds, 5 plates. Tack driver? Probably not. Good enough? Plates seemed to think so.
.410 has never been very impressive to me out of 20" barreled shotguns, I can't imagine how lame it would be from a handgun. Well, I can, the Box of Truth website did a great writeup. I didn't know that a .410 slug only weighs 96 grains...
Its a good novelty firearm; more for those that have accumulated
all of their hearts desires beforehand (ie: old S&W's, Colt's, Ruger's).
Great "in the car" or home defense weapon when loaded with #6
I was fortunate over a year ago... boredom had led me to my 'pusher's lair' (On my side of town, Ala Dan... sorry!) to purchase the SS short Judge. It was being sold as I arrived. The next day at the range, my fortune continued. A day-shooter presented with a blued version - and I had my 625MG and some homebrew 255gr LSWC (840 fps from that 4" tube.), warmer than the MagTech cowboy loads, but certainly not hot. We traded - his with a couple #11 birdshot .410s, all he could find at Academy Sports, where he had bought it, and the cowboy loads. Mine had Ahrends wood grips and those warmer loads. He said it kicked - and it seemed 'unsafe', too easy in the trigger department. I don't think he hit a steel plate at 12yd with it. Discharged on a man-silhouette, I noted a celestial swirl-galaxy pattern... lots of snakes would survive that. My three .45 Colt shots missed the plates. The trigger was typically new Taurus nasty - rough and stout. The grips were squishy. I felt fortunate as I caressed my old 625MG.
I've 'improved' Taurus triggers for friends - and grips can be easily changed. I just feel it is, as Ala Dan said, for someone bored with his collection - and wanting a novelty. Get a 3" .38/.357M for a more effective car gun. Besides, the old Thunder Five and BFR .45/.410s at least have a 3" .410 chamber - Taurus promised one, still haven't seen it. If I see that guy who bought that Judge over a year ago, I need to buy him a soda...
The Latest issue of Shooting Times (Dec) has an article on The Judge. The writer suggests no 4 shot,either OO or OOO buckshot in the pistol. The 3' chambered version will be out in 2009 and Federal will be making ammo especially for The Judge. I believe it was Dick Metcalf that wrote the article.
Actually, that figure is from much later than WWII, and was arrived at by surgeons. Let's not "decide" what was the cause of a figure without researching it.
FYI, the FBI "figures" were arrived at by the expedience of adding 50% to the actually accepted figure of 8", based on the FBI "experience" that indicated a need to penetrate intervening limbs, or fat people. I guess that the fat person wasn't going to block the shot with his arm? The real science has been used to measure the ability of a load to conform to the arbitrary standard.
Let's see, 53 ft-lbs. A 4 oz. baseball at 80 mph, fairly typical major league fastball, is enough to reliably kill people. Gee, why do they bother letting the batter walk to first base in the event of a wild ball? He should be dead, instead!
Can't find a citation for 53 ft-lbs, other than a couple very vague references, so I'll have to let that one go (though I'm positive I've read some stuff dating between WWI and II that referenced about 65 ft-lbs).
However, the 12"-18" standard was actually arrived at with a number of doctors, mostly Dr. Fackler, based on what the minimum is to reliably reach a vital organ from any shooting angle which could occur in a confrontation.
And the "experience," which I guess you believe is a fairy tail, was 2 FBI agents dying because a guy who had been shot from the side, through his arm, as he was crawling out of a car, took a lot longer to die than he would've if the bullet had penetrated a couple inches more.
Designed as a dual purpose weapon
It really seems to perform either function very well. One day it might be some kind of collectors item due to it's unusual nature and absolute but ugliness. Save your money and buy anything else.
I have one and I think it is a FANTASTIC home gun. I know that mine always stays at home and always in the safe where it is readily accessible to show anyone who wants to see a useless gun.
I'll be glad to take that useless piece off your hands!
Sorry, but I don't sell guns. Even if they are worthless.
Good old Dick must be on the Taurus payroll.
He is the only gun writer making a living off of articles & TV shows about the Judge.
Well I don't think it is "worthless" it holds 5 45Lcs, there are better guns but I bet YOU won't be knockin' in my backdoor and at the same time pullin' out your superman cap to deflect the 5 gold-dots headed to your chest, a 45lc is more effective than a .38 special and they have put down more than any other..... to me it is a big snubbie that can do some damage.
I have to admit that my "worthless" wording was a little extreme.
My opinion is:
As a .410 platform, the shells can be difficult to get seated far enough to close the cylinder, the 3" .410 shells spread quickly enough to be effectively nothing more than noise most of the time, and unless you use the correct shells, they don't eject easily.
As a .45 LC platform, it is possibly worse than any I've shot.
The gun works, but it isn't pretty and is more of a novelty gun than anything else.
From the Judge?!? I would put it more like headed in the general direction of your chest.
My thoughts exactly. I own one, BTW.
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