The ultimate "Appleseed Rifle" (warning opinion ahead)...

[WayneConrad]

There is no ultimate Appleseed rifle, because Appleseed is not about gear.

To own the rifleman's quarter mile, you need, what, around 4MOA or so. You, a basic rifle with whatever sights let you see, a shooting sling, and the basics of riflery. Nothing fancier than that. It doesn't take a bench, a match rifle, a specially broken in barrel, hand-loaded ammo, or any tricks.

The most important thing is that you and your rifle can put the rounds inside 4MOA, reliably, from field positions under time pressure.

It doesn't matter at all what rifle it takes you to do that. It really doesn't. It should be one you can afford, is reliable, you can get and have ammo and spare parts for, and that you will practice with.

Once I get the money for it, I'm going to try out the M-14/M1A platform, given lots of GI parts and not "accurized." Seems like a good choice to me. But again, it's not that important.

 

[Mikee Loxxer]

To me it would seem that it is dubious to operate under the assumption that Uncle Sam will extend his resources to supporting the citizen militia. Do you really think if the SHTF that they would start handing out 5.56 to citizens? I would think not. Look at how the people were treated during Katrina.

 

[Deer Hunter]

In SHTF, I'm going to work my ass off to fire as LITTLE as possible, seeing as how I am simply me, and they are many.

If that makes any sense. We quarral and throw around our E-guns all day long and nothing will change. Tools are great to have, but your aptness to adapt and survive, in whatever ways possible far outweighs what you may use as a tool for survival. In these "endtime" fantasies, you will die of starvation, sickness, exposure, infection, etc far before a a bullet completely incapacitates you.

 

[Nolo]

A-men, Deer Hunter!
Survivalist all the way!

 

[Bruenor]

I wouldn't be able to afford an AR15, but I like your thoughts about common rifles/ammo. What about a Saiga in .223? Much cheaper to buy, same price to shoot. Any thoughts? Would this be usable for Appleseed?

 

[Deer Hunter]

Bruenor,

The Saiga .223 is a wonderful rifle that would do well. A pair of tech-sights for it would work nicely on it. I have a POSP scope on mine and get very good accuracy. It's close to your average off-the-rack AR. It would do well for appleseed.

 

[ripper225]

in a SHTF situation, you could pick up rifles just as easily as you could pick up mags of the zombie bodies... as long as you have SOMETHING that you can get started with

 

[azredhawk44]

WayneConrad is right.

The "Appleseed Rifle" is the rifle you have at the moment. The goal of Appleseed is to resurrect the nation of Riflemen... folks who could take any serviceable rifle handed to them on the spot, from an SKS to a NEF Handi-Rifle to an AR to a Berrett .416, and shoot to a 4 MOA standard in order to own the "Rifleman's Quarter Mile."

The "Appleseed Rifle" is a spontaneous creature that exists in spirit more than substance and category...

And above all, the "Appleseed Rifle" is a subcomponent of the "Appleseed Rifleman," a renaissance man that honors the sacrifices of our founding fathers and participates in grass-roots activism of the Soft War so that he is assured he will never have to use his rifle for its true, awful pupose later.

 

[stevelyn]

To me it would seem that it is dubious to operate under the assumption that Uncle Sam will extend his resources to supporting the citizen militia. Do you really think if the SHTF that they would start handing out 5.56 to citizens? I would think not. Look at how the people were treated during Katrina.

It's very likely that when SHTF day arrives, Uncle Sam will be the enemy.

 

[Nhsport]

I understand the appleseed program isn't about gear but teaching you to use whatever you bring and learning the basic skills to better shoot any rifle.
If one has the available funds to purchase an AR or friends that will loan you one I would think it would be a very desiriable choice for the class.
The AR has very good iron sights,It has light recoil and a variety of available stocks to fit many body sizes which along with its light weight would make it more suitable for use by smaller folks than some of the full size mil-surps.
The good accuracy of the stock AR with plain Ball type ammo would lead to better understanding of the fundamental skills being taught . Someone shooting a SKS with surplus ammo will be hampered by a dificult set of sights,a pretty heavy trigger, a stock grip more in line with the typical russian farmer (kind of like grabbing a 2X4) and questionable ammo performance that all leads to minute of pie plate accuracy even in the hands of an experienced shooter.
The AR if available will reward decent shooting skills with decent results. No excuses,Bad performance with an AR is the result of bad performance of the skill sets being taught. Better learned skills will demonstrate better shooting. The cause and effect will be demonstrated more clearly.

 

[gp911]

WHOA!

2 things...

1. If we're scavenging ammo from dead folks serving our gov't after the SHTF can't we scavenge the rifle too? Buy what you want!

b) Appleseed is a basic rifleman qualifying course. A good rifle in general will perform if you do _your_ part...

Back to you...

gp911

 

[ROMAK IV]

Please.....

So what is the ultimate rifle for an Appleseed shooter or "Citizen Militia"?
Ask the US Army and Marine Corps. It's an AR15 set up as close as possible to an issue M16A2/A4.

Why the AR?
Logistics. That ALL. Plain old logistics. Commonality of ammunition, magazines, parts, accessories, maintenance and support. When GI Joe starts actually packing a SCAR in 6.8 SPC or some other rifle and caliber combo, THEN and only then would THAT rifle be the Citizen Militia's choice.

So what if you think the AR platform sucks? Or that the 5.56mm cartridge sucks?
You're not alone. BUT. As long as the 5.56mm in an AR is the standard issue of the US Armed Forces, that is the rifle and round that the Citizen Militia should have.

That's MY $0.02 worth of free opinion, YMMV.

It's pretty simple to figure out, buy a rifle tha doesn't need "a logistical supply line and get enough ammunition, around 10,000 rounds to provide a prolonged supply. And besides, the merits of an AR-15 rifle and the 5.56 round are more than relevant. Personally, I really don't believe the powers that be, are going to "acivate the civilian militia" and why would they? If a situation is truely "shtf" how are you or anyone else going to know exactly what is going to happen. I don't own an AR but there is nothing basically wrong woth the rifle, although it reqires a certain level of maintenance to keep operating, and if you happen to want one, that is quite okay and even if you don't want one it is wise to know how to operate and maintain one anyway. Me. I prefer a more powerful rifle cartridge and a more robust rifle than an AR. And I don't want to have to rely on dubious logistical support or having to scrounge weapons and ammunition off of the dead. Besides, an AR of the type you describe is illegal to own in certain parts of the country now, most notably California, Garands, M1-A's, and MN's and all manners of bolt action rifles, are not. A Garand is perfect, parts and gunsmithing are quite cheap for what it is, and the government is currently selling the ammunition right now. They are sealed for long storage and they are packed ready to use. For the price of an AR, like you describe, you cold buy a totally rearsenaled Moison Nagant and about 6000 rounds of ammunition. while with the AR, you still haven't een bought the ammunition yet, which is over twice the cost of the 7.62 x 54R.

 

[Ignition Override]

Deer Hunter: Yes.

In the Civil War, mostly because of limited medical/pharmaceutical knowledge (I suppose), the majority of soldier fatalities were due to infection or sickness, instead of the battlefield.

You guys (and a few gals) might enjoy some Internet sites which describe how the Finns beat the Soviets in the long-forgotten "Winter War",
with Soviet-designed rifles, i.e. the Mosin Nagant

 

[Zoogster]

Have you seen what happens to people that group up armed in Iraq?

Look at how the people were treated during Katrina.

Don't forget the checkpoints, and people found with arms had them taken away.

It's very likely that when SHTF day arrives, Uncle Sam will be the enemy.

Most of such a 'war' would be fought with explosives and concealable weapons. If you think you would exchange fire for long before death from above came, you are mistaken.
Hit and run tactics and ambushes. Weapons that are not concealable would have little use most of the time.
Your adversary will also all be wearing body armor and plates that defeat intermediate caliber rifles. So something concealable and capable of defeating the armor while at the same time still doing enough damage to stop the target from returning fire are the requirements.

Many would be in vehicles designed to defeat most civilian owned small arms. You better know how to make shaped charges to disable APCs and armored patrols as necessary.

You need some very heavy hitting concealable small arms when you do face soft targets, because they are well protected.
Such designs are not currently popular, and those that are are generaly NFA items, and the government is well aware of those legaly possessed.

If you really believe you would be walking around with a several foot long rifle when there is checkpoints setup and aircraft and artillery on standby for coordinates you are going to have an explosive reality check.

The ideal firearms will be something under 2 feet long, at least concealable under a coat, and capable of defeating most SAPI plates.
That means energy figures in excess of 7.62x51mm/.308 are the starting point, and it must have those figures from a short barrel. Projectile designs that defeat armor better are also more useful.
Hollowpoints and things designed for use in soft tissue are less effective.
Such a compact arm firing such rounds would also need to be quite heavy to have manageable recoil, or incorporate technology that reduces recoil not common now.


My point is the ideal arm for long range engagements against soldiers in sapi plates is very hard to be mobile with in such an environment. So the most capable and useful arm in such a situation is something very different than most of us are used to. It is not the standard battle rifles people picture, and it is not in the calibers of most battle rifles.


A several foot long rifle is just a good way to be targeted.
You also must stay constantly mobile. Anyone that stays in one place long against superior forces with air support will not last. While mobile you cannot appear obviously armed, and must blend in.
IEDs and ambushes are your friend, open engagements are not. That means small arms are a secondary tool for such a fight, not the primary one.
Such a war lasts a long time, at least until the economy can no longer support the military well enough. That takes many years, and the quality of life for most citizens must get very low before the government is struggling (because the taxes that support them come from such an economy, as do most of the raw materials).

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Don't forget the checkpoints, and people found with arms had them taken away.

If I am given warning beforehand and still don't bug out, why the hell would I ever bug out after?

If there is a serious pending natural disaster or emergency and we are told to leave, then I am packing my crap and leaving, and I am staying off the highways and the freeways to do it. I'll be taking the unpaved single lane country roads back in the sticks where there are so many different roads they'd have to checkpoint that it would basically be impossible.

Logging roads, powerline maintenance roads, train track maintenance roads, state and county roads...they can't put checkpoints on all of them and expect to have enough manpower to make the checkpoints on any of them effective.

And once I get where I am going, we have land with gardens and orchards, wild game, chickens, several generators, solar power with battery banks, an irrigation system, and enough basic medical and health supplies to be self-sufficient for at least a period of several months. In fact, if the disaster is localized and doesn't affect the whole country, I could watch everything unfold on TV while waving at the news camera. I wouldn't even miss the Super Bowl. If it did affect the entire country, it means I watch less TV, and read more.

The worst part is limited internet connection minimizing THR exposure

As for rifles and equipment in general and the AR-15 in particular--I was trained on one. I can shoot one. I qualified 'expert' with one. I know I can keep one running. But I still can't stand the thing. For SHTF situations, I'd rather have an AK than an AR, and rather have an M1A or FAL than my AK. If I run out of ammo or have a catastrophic failure with my primary weapon, we have enough rifles laying around that I could cope, and eventually, I am fine with picking up one of their rifles. If it is an AR/M16, then I am still fairly familiar with it. If not, then I am reasonably intelligent, and have been around rifles long enough that I feel like I could learn, whether it be an SA80, AUG, G36, FAMAS (God forbid we ever get invaded by the French), or whatever the N. Koreans and Chinese are cooking up now days.

As has already been brought up, with proper fundamentals, the equipment is semantics and largely irrelevant. People tend to focus on the arrow and not the Indian. So when they can't hit COM past 50 yards with their AK, they assume it is the rifle, when any halfway competent rifleman can keep most of their rounds from even a 4 to 6 MOA rifle like the Kalashnikov COM out to at least 200 yards. I know I can, because I've done it. If you can't, I say bump fire less, use sights more, and focus on the fundamentals.

[Steps off soap box]

 

[variablebinary]

Get a rifle, and learn to shoot it well...

I know people have romantic images of WWII street to street battles, but in reality one or two men that are really good shots can cause all kinds of havoc and get the hell out of Dodge before the JDAM's are called in.

If there is ever SHTF, most of the idiots running around with multicam, thigh rigs, tricked out AR15's, and Oakleys will get cut in half by locals with deer rifles at 200 yards. Why? because they spent more on gear than shooting and training.

It amazes me how many people spend thousands on gear and about $500 bucks on ammo a year...

Other than that, think small weapons so you can hit hard and move fast, and once again, get the hell out of Dodge before armor rolls over you.

 

[chieftain]

Zoogster!

BINGO BINGO BINGO!

I don't believe the number of folks, particularly ex military, that don't really understand The US Military order of Battle.

You will be lucky to see the Recon unit, troops, Unmanned aircraft, manned aircraft, remote sensors or satellite that locates you.

You might if your lucky, be able to hold off the weapons used to 'fix' you, until the really heavy weapons come in to destroy you.

Remember those wonderful video's of **** meeting our latest whizzbang heavy Intelligent weapon. You will be the guy in the picture. Or meet the wrong end of a Bradly, Abrams or one of those ungodly accurate artillery barrages. Neat stuff, if you ain't on the receiving end.

AS to the AR15/M16/M4 family. Most folks argue logistics to justify or rationalize their choice.

Picking a rifle that has a 6000 round scheduled life, in only it's best manufactured forms, don't sound to bright to me. And frankly the rifles most civilians own, wouldn't last that long in combat conditions.

As to finding combat discards or KIA weapons. You only get to find them if you win the battle. Otherwise the other guys will still be busy, looking for and killing/capturing you.

If I had to go mobile, my CCW full size 1911 (vs and of my SIG's, Glock's, S&W revolvers), which I can maintain and carry parts for, and my XCR which when folded will fit in my pack. No one will know I am carrying a fighting rifle. If I get real worried about finding ammo, I could also get the 7.62x39 conversion, barrel and bolt and be able to scrounge or lay in additional Ammo.

My M1A/M14 M1 Garand are both chambered for 7.62 NATO. My M1A carbine with it's folding stock or either Springfield 03-A3 or US Enfield Pattern 1917 30-06 will do for fighting bolt actions.

Or use my Redneck assault rifle, my Winchester 94 lever.

This kind of fight ain't about rifles and pistols, it's about politics, tactics and strategies.

I don't like either of our Presidential candidates. Hussein is a Socialist at best, and I have known McCain personally for 26 years (yea, first names) and don't like or trust him.

I will probably go McCain out of a total feeling of least worst. The Libertarian, is nothing but a vote for Hussein. I used to laugh at the folks that voted for Peroit and had the bumper stickers that said, "Don't blame me I voted for Peroit", they were the folks that elected AND reelected Bubba Clinton. Clinton was never elected with 50% +1 or more of the vote.

The fight is now in the elections, VOTE. I believe as a strong proponent of the 2nd Amendment, we need to choose McCain as the least worse, and the most 'likely' to place judges that are more apt to interpret the Constitution as written vs as they would have wrote it.

Rant over.

Quick aside. As Zoogster says, carrying a visible rifle away from home, makes you a visible target for everyone. Good guys, Badguys, anyone. If you came through my neighborhood during a period of Natural disaster, or Civil distress, I wouldn't be looking to kindly on you. SHTF situations are about avoidance essentially E&E, not fighting. (I was in Hialeah Florida after Hurricane Andrew in 92, for a short while. I was literally riding 'shotgun'. I am a Florida boy, and I have been through a ton of Hurricanes. But nothing matched the devastation I saw for myself that day. I can only take what I saw on TV, and extend my own experience, into what happened in Louisiana and Mississippi.)

Your day to day CCW should be able to handle these situations, away from home too. Your CCW needs to be more than just comfortable. It needs to be able to do a potential raft of jobs, that a firearm, may be asked to accomplish.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[Nameless_Hobo]

I wouldn't count on receiving spare parts from the government.

You ask for it, they're likely to disarm you at gunpoint.
You try to steal it, they'll shoot you.

Perhaps I'm just bitter, but I just can't see the government changing overnight from hostile to armed citizens, to handing out ammunition and spare parts so civilian militias can go fight the invasion, or put down zombies, or help keep civil peace, etc.

Everyone else has already said, waltzing about with a "baby killing assault rifle" garners too much attention, anyway.

 

[Geronimo45]

In the advent of an invasion of the US, I can't see the government handing out spare parts an ammo to us. They'll be wanting all they have, maybe scouring gun shops and Wal-Marts for more ammo. We'd probably be considered illegal combatants as per the Geneva Convention anyways.

 

[ROMAK IV]

Checkpoints! Please! The US military is not now and has never been large enough to administer that kind of occupation, and therre aren't enough federal agents available either, and at least 1/2, like the military, will be support personnel. I am not discounting the strength of the military, but 200.000 combat troops, is it is possible to muster that many, just aren't going to cut it. Too many assets in the US are soft, which is why it has been so unwise to neglect the US borders. That is not our system of government, no matter what certain politicians believe and want everyone to believe. So you can believe it if you want to, that the government is so strong, it can do what it wants, and if that is the case, you might as well not even try, be the first in line to turn it your guns and rat on your neighbors. Because, you just aren't going to be able to get RPG's and such. So, let's get off that kind of talk before this thread gets shut down. I think it is an interesting and informative topic, so let's get back to it, without the other.

 

[taprackbang]

I went to an Appleseed in OK a few months ago and I used my Mosin Nagant M44. After the shoot was completed, I was in, shall we say, PAIN. But, I wanted to have fun and no one really told me before hand that a LTR was the preferred platform. (Ruger 10/22 w/ Tech Sights) I love the M44 because it is a fire breathing dragon.
The best group I shot that day was standing and aiming for the 100 yard shadow on the upper left of the AQT target. 5 hits!!

 

[chieftain]

I went to an Appleseed in OK a few months ago and I used my Mosin Nagant M44. After the shoot was completed, I was in, shall we say, PAIN. But, I wanted to have fun and no one really told me before hand that a LTR was the preferred platform. (Ruger 10/22 w/ Tech Sights) I love the M44 because it is a fire breathing dragon.
The best group I shot that day was standing and aiming for the 100 yard shadow on the upper left of the AQT target. 5 hits!!

Good shooting!

I used to carry a M14 'at work'. Used it 'at work' a bunch too. I used to shoot expert with Iron sights out to 500 yds. Nothing on earth could get me to trust the widow maker.

But I would probably use my Robinson Arms XCR (folding stock That will disappear in my pack) or my WWII US Postal Meter M1A1 Carbine (the Para stock which is not correct on a Postal Meter but works great. Like the XCR disappears in a pack or other none gun cases), today. Frankly have better optics and stuff on the XCR. M3 and with both on quick release mounts, The AimPoint 3X magnifier too.

I have every attachment except the BUIS (it ain't coming off) on Larue quick attach/detach mounts. White lite and magnifier is kept in the BOB. At home for HD I put the white light on (Surefire 9P with LED replacement head) Even the FG is attached via the Larue Fast on/off system. It works for me. I hope to get my 7.62 conversion kit in a few months. In my case more for access to a greater variety of ammunition than any other reason And that 7.62x39 is cheapest to shoot.

I can't see that far now. 200/300 yards is fine with me and my trifocals today.

I no longer fight the NVA, I now must fight the VA.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[Pigspitter]

If it lands you with your supreme war pike (Mosin) then that's another thing entirely.

I think the valuable lesson we should take from this is the fact that a Mosin is just as useful without cartridges than with them.

 

[taprackbang]

Rifle selection

Rifles:
Mosin Nagant M44(7.62x54R)
Henry H001(.22lr)
Custom Remington 700LTR(.308Win)
Lee-Enfield MkIII (.303British)


I am very tempted to try a Lee Enfield. It sounds like a great rifle.
I heard a guy at a local gun store in Arlington TX. ranting and raving about the K31 Swiss. I think I may eventually plop down the cash for one.

Meanwhile, time to stock up on .308 and 7.62X54r!

See ya.

 

[taprackbang]

Chieftain

Did they let you keep your M14 and take it home as a souvie?