The ultimate home defense gun for women

[Skibane]

One of the hottest trends of the past decade has been the increase in households where no man is present. Plenty of single and divorced women now own their own homes, and even women who are married generally outlive their spouses by a decade or two.

This has got me to thinking that gun manufacturers may be overlooking a significant, growing potential market segment: Home defense weapons for women. Sadly, judging by all the single female homeowners I personally know, virtually all of the firearms currently on the market have significant deficiencies.

Before throwing this thread out for discussion, I'd like to include my own impressions:

1. While it's true that S&W and other companies offer the occasional "Ladies" model of handgun, I'm convinced that the best firearm for the woman who lives alone may actually be a rifle. A rifle generates much less recoil than a similar-caliber handgun (a common complaint among women), and provides greater accuracy (much better probability of hitting the target). Also, there's usually little reason to conceal a firearm around the house, so the advantage of a handgun's compactness is lost in this setting.

2. Shotguns may have their place in the home defense equation, but they are tremendously intimidating for many women to use. Their recoil and muzzle blast is simply too strong to warrant consideration by many women.

3. Simplicity is absolutely essential. None of the women I know would ever be comfortable with the mechanical intricacies of clambering or extracting a round from a semi-auto pistol or rifle. It may be second nature to us gun-guys, but it's pure Greek to 90 percent of the fairer sex.

Leverguns and bolt-actions are a little less intimidating, but still leave plenty of room for operator error. No, for the ultimate in pull-the-trigger-and-it-goes-bang-everytime simplicity, IMO, it has to be a revolver. No cocking or decocking, no magazines to load, no safeties to mess with – and you can actually see the rounds in the chamber!

4. The shortest legal barrel length is probably best for this application, since few shots will ever be required beyond several dozen yards. This also keeps the weight down.

5. Stainless steel is preferable to a blued finish, since regular maintenance probably isn't going to be a high priority with most owners.

6. Since children and other residents may be in the house, a good affixed flashlight is absolutely essential for target identification after nightfall. While the average Joe may be inclined to "open up just to scare 'em off", I can assure you that no woman will make this mistake!

So, does anybody know where I can pick up half a dozen stainless-steel .357 Magnum revolver rifles with 16" barrels and Sure-Fire tactical lights for the favorite women in my life?

 

[sm]

Yes there is an increase in single parent families, lots of women HOH. Mfg's are most often directed by bean counters, lawyers and Wall street, not what the consumer wants. Make a product in quanity,that won't get us sued and let the marketing hype find the consumer...might as well let them beta test it too.

IME, I let women regardless of age and experience handle various types and explain the pro/con and answer questions. I let them make the choice, if they don't like it, they won't practice, no practice...wasted time and money.

It depends on what the set up is , city, urban, remote, farm. What it the threat, a prison down the road, two legged, 4 legged...how big is the threat, rabid, drunk, high on PCP, meth...? We need someting for a 2 br apt, or a 2 story farmhouse with 100 acres out back and daddy is 500 yds across the other way?

I usually start with 22 rifles, marlin 60 is good for a mini 14, bolt for the .243, lever for a lever .357, 30-30.

I still believe in Shotguns for most. Used pumps in 1300 and 870, 20 and 12 bore, some are youth models. Again the lady shoots and with instruction of fit, we have an easy customer. I don't rule out 1100s, in 20 ga, full or youth. I set a few up with used Beretta 302 and 303...they shoot them, became comfortable,later went to a pump...but the trigger time and less recoil got them there first.

I never rule out single shots, my mom uses one (arthritis negates her revo skills), fits a price range, for elderly, college students, or the gal in midst of being stalked , DV..and needing something now while awaiting CCW and re-locating.

I let the gals choose. I do know one gal with a marlin 60 kept herself and daughter safe till daddy made it from his farmhouse. She forgot about wanting a mini 14, decided against a AR...she went bolt in .308...keeps the mod 60, the 1911 , and 870 close by too.
She started with a model 60...

 

[Black Snowman]

I'm thinking .410 or 28 gauge pump shotgun or break-open double barrel. Pumps are very simple to operate, break-opens even more so. 410 and 28 have mild recoil. My Mom won't hesitate to grab the single shot 12 gauge under her bed if she's home alone and hears a bump. One shot is likely more than she'll need with the big hole staring down an intruder. If she needs more she's in way over her head anyway.

From what I've seen (not in person) revolver rifles had a scary amount of flash around the cylinder as a general rule because of the extended backpressure of the long barrel. They fell out of favor for other designs for some good reasons. I don't even see any re-pros for the cowboy shoots.

 

[Kaylee]

I let the gals choose.

sounds like a good idea to me.
Some chicks are skittish of anything more menacing than a little .38, I've met others -- even "non-gunny" chicks smaller than Betty that wouldn't be happy with less than a .45 ACP or a big ol' 12 guage.

nothing ensures apathy and neglect like having your decisions made for you. Kinda like ol' Moscow I guess...

that's the choosing half of the argument. as for the "what can manufacturers do" half...
I'd be curious to see if Badger could adopt his free recoil design into a very soft-shooting, semi 20 guage or big bore/low blast carbine or som'n scaled down to the small female/youth stature size.


-K

 

[pax]

Boy, I can't wait until Runt, Tamara, and Kaylee see this post.

pax

Sometimes I wonder if men and women really suit each other. Perhaps they should live next door and just visit now and then. -- Katharine Hepburn

 

[Ian]

<heads for cover, while pondering the ultimate home defense gun for men...>

 

[sm]

Kaylee, pax, and other ladies.

I may get flamed, but in my limited experience ladies are more receptive to learning, listening, and practice. Those raised around guns have ideas learned from grandparents, parents, bros/sis/sibs. Even so they are receptive, and know what they like, and do better when family does not do the teaching. Newbies, have no qualms admitting/asking questions, "I'm afraid, does it kick. Is it safe?". And NO built in hormonal sterotypical thingy that knows more because of an article read or so and so LEO/SEAL uses it.

The gals will practice. I have learned much by having the pleasure to share what little I know with the ladies.

Besides I ain't gonna argue with the gal whom puts an orange dot on divorce papers at 100yds... and a tight group to boot...nope...earler she kept all rounds in the polaroid of ex at 10 yds with a BHP

I shut up watch and keep daughter company banging away with the marlin 60...out of ammo ... yes ma'am I'm a coming...

 

[Skibane]

re1973, no one would dispute the fact that each woman should make her own gun choice, but that doesn't address the lack of availability of good products for them to choose from.

The point of my original post was that there are no home-defense firearms currently on the market that truly take into account the unique concerns of the average woman. Esteemed female members of this board excepted, none of the women I know care about how a gun works, or how to make it work better. They don't care about double-taps or Weaver stances, but they have serious doubts about whether they will be able to use the gun when they really need it. We need guns that are made for these folks, rather than forcing them to choose the least offensive guns made for the rest of us.

 

[444]

If they don't care about any of this stuff, one has to wonder if they care about owning a gun or if is someone elses idea that they are going along with.

 

[Black Snowman]

I disagree Skibane. If they're not comfortable with a gun I think it's more important that they become comfortable and educate themselves. That's the right and responsability of every individual. If they don't they're not going to be able to protect themselves effectively and safely.

Don't expect equipment to make up for deficencies in skill. The important thing is to get them interested, to get them educated, and to help develop the skills they need to protect themselves. No piece of wonder-equipment can bypass this.

I can tell you why no one has filled this nitche. To the companies the liablilty of marketing a "safe" gun for untrained and uneducated home defense is HUGE. I think the truth is that the best weapons for a man defending his home are the same ones for a woman defending her home.

Considerations in both cases have to be made for physical build and strength, comfort level with the weapon, and everything else that we discuss on this board about home defense and weapon selection. I think you're doing woman a disservice by implying they need a "dumbed down" weapon for lack of a better term.

True, some woman may not ever become comfortable with what most would consider a good home defense weapon and there's a lot of men that wouldn't either. For them I recommend large and territorial dogs

 

[T.Stahl]

If I'd think about an HD long gun for my mom or girlfriend, I'd think about the lines of a .30 M1 Carbine or .357Mag/.38Spl Winchester 94 Trapper or Ranger Compact.

 

[sm]

Skibane : in my original post I shared my reasons and thoughts:

Mfg's are most often directed by bean counters, lawyers and Wall street, not what the consumer wants. Make a product in quanity,that won't get us sued and let the marketing hype find the consumer...might as well let them beta test it too.

Ok for so long now this is the way it is, regardless of gender, youth models- even a more slim selection. Shotguns are "figured" for a person 5' 10" and with a 31" sleeve. The military issues a Beretta sidearm that is difficult for many with small hands/short fingers to reach the trigger, and safety. Rifles the same way. I did not mention gender, granted many mfg's did nothing but consider buyers to be men, or boys...for so many years. I know many ladies whom have accepted this , as men have had to do. Hence the gunsmith "listening" and coming up with the mods to fit shooters. Sterotypical of men perhaps to gripe and complain, perhaps Iwannacoolgunvirus, to "buy scores and targets". The reality is women historically have had to learn to live in a man's world. Adapted quite well, have made advances, and "deal with it". Jane Doe has her gun fitted, has her shoe repair guy un-sew and re-sew her holster to fit her anatomy, gets the machinists in the family to make scope rings, has that model 70 stock shortened and Kick-Eeez installed ...etc. John Doe gripes, blames the mfg., has a box full of holsters,and swaps guns more than he opens a new toothbrush. Jane accepts and can shoot, John makes excuses when he misses. Jane gets lessons and listens, and practices. John is out trading guns again, because the latest gun guru, internet expert or phase of the moon says he has to have a different one if he wants to hit a gnats butt at a certain yardage.

NO-- more women getting involved in shooting, especiallymore recently. CCW has done more to get holster mfg., grip makers, and some handgun designers to wake up. In time these women will have more of a hand in design for rifles and shotguns. Probably when they buy out, become CEO, or have opened thier own shop.

Until then the firearm mfg's only attention to female anatomy is the center-fold, the nude internet-sites, and maybe the once a week "manly duties"... horsefeathers to all that masculine , well you know what?

I could be wrong, but money talks, women have money and will spend it. Women are just more realistic about having to get things fit ,pay for it and don't blame mfg's and equipment. IMO.

Yep I'm a guy, been married, now divorced and single. I felt this way when married and whittled the grips for the Mrs. gun until they fit, sanded and she was happy. She wanted orange inserts, she got 'em. Took a new holster of mine and well, she wanted and we had the shoe shop guy re-do it. I didn't even wince when I bought a used stock for a rifle and cut it down. Now when she eyed MY 1911 CCW...hold it...a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

 

[Skibane]

Snowman, I am in no way implying that women are "dumbed down". However, as a group, they simply aren't interested in things mechanical in the same way that most men are. With respect to firearms, this trait makes simplicity of operation *VERY* important.

In some regards, technical proficiency is a form of elitism — those who have it tend to look down on those who don't. I see it all the time in the computer industry: Rather than designing the hardware to meet the user's needs, the user must instead adapt to the idiosyncrasies of the hardware – and the "experts" have been living the idiosyncrasies for so long that they're not even aware of them anymore. Similarly, folks who handle guns on a daily basis wonder if the ordinary citizen is even qualified to deal with the complexities of guns (rather than wondering if the guns could be made to be less complex).

Bottom line: Even the most "user-friendly" guns currently on the market are too cumbersome for the vast majority of women to use (not to mention plenty of men). The fact that the sum total of THR's entire female roster can be counted on one hand attests to this fact. All the talk about "training" and "gaining familiarity" in the world aren't going to change this to any significant degree.

 

[Black Snowman]

re1973, one of the best gun stores in the greater KC metro area is run by a nice lady who I think would agree with you.

If anyone ever finds them self north of Kansas City on I-70 in the area of Kearney, MO be sure to stop by a little shop called "Great Guns". Exit I-70, go east about 3 blocks and turn north into the 1st strip mall you see.

 

[sm]

Not used to people agreeing with me...especially women, excuse me, I gotta mark my calendar.

 

[Black Snowman]

Skibane Bottom line: Even the most "user-friendly" guns currently on the market are too cumbersome for the vast majority of women to use (not to mention plenty of men). The fact that the sum total of THR's entire female roster can be counted on one hand attests to this fact. All the talk about "training" and "gaining familiarity" in the world aren't going to change this to any significant degree.

Right, you can't talk about training and gaining familiarity. You have to do it. In my High School debate days we called this "outreach". If you want woman to protect themselves with firearms to an increased degree you have to get out there and help them do it. As you pointed out most women don't take in interst in things mechancial. So it stands to reason that a simpler mechanical device won't interset them to any greater degree.

We need to reach out to these woman and cultivate interest. To avoid issues of recoil, weight, ect. . . you don't want to start out on the weapons they'll defend themselves with. You want to start them out on weapons that are classicly good for training. .22 rifles and pistols of various descriptions are a great start.

I don't think any piece of simplified new gear is going to get any more woman to protect themselves effectively with firearms. There just isn't a short cut with something as complicated as the care and use of a firearm.

Cleaning, for instance, is a particularly complex, time consuming, and quite nessisary part of firearm ownership. It's something that any single female living by herself is going to need to know how to do to keep her weapon effective.

I'll agree that simplicity is a good thing. Especially in a defensive weapon. My Mom doesn't have a great interest in things mechanical but she has taken more of an interest in protecing herself. Renewed now that MO (where she lives) will allow CCW and she travels in her work.

She has taken the time and my Father has taken the initiative to introduce her to the intracacies of auto-loading handguns. If she does decided to carry one I'm going to recommend the Glock due to it's simple design and operation and the fact that I know she won't carry any gun with "one in the pipe" (That's past her comfort level for now) so a chance of a ND is minimal even with the lack of a manual safety.

She may end up not carrying, carrying a revolver, or carrying a .50 Desert Eagle. I don't know right now and it's up to her but I do know that the DE is not likely. Her lack of interst previously means that she is just starting in the learning curve and has a way to go before she's proficent, educated, and experianced enough to make a good decision on her personal protection.

There are thousands of choices out there for guns and many would work for her. Saftey procedures, controls, recoil management, and good trigger control are all things that my Dad and I have developed already and are things that my Mom will need to develop if she seriously wants to protect herself which is looking like the case.

A firearm is a dangrous tool and it's use is not something that should be taken casually or in a slipshod manner. I think formal training is a good tool to help get the new people "up to speed" with us old hands. Handing someone a gun they can opporate simply because it's easy is asking for trouble IMHO.

 

[only1asterisk]

I'm not going to go into misconceptions about women and guns. I'll leave that to the mentioned ladies mentioned above.

I do however agree that there are few guns are tolerant of people (male/female/other) that do not practice with them, do not maintain them or are afraid of them.

If I were to design a home defense weapon system for a recoil sensitive shooter of minimum experience, it would be a 28 gauge Remington 870. It would have a 20†cylinder or modified choke barrel, a magazine extension/flashlight, and a 5 round side saddle. It would retain the full length forearm; have a shortened stock adjustable with spacers and a premium recoil pad. Optional would be ghostring sights, a tritium bead, and magnaporting.

The ammo would be ¾-1oz of hard, plated lead #2 or BB; a #4 buckshot load, and a 300 grain .5†slug at about 1060 fps.

The Remington pump shotgun is simple, easy to maintain (even for a novice), and tolerant of abuse. In a dark house, a 20 or 28ga looks and sounds exactly like as its 12ga brother. The weight of a 28ga can be reduced without fear of increasing recoil, and there are no 28ga magnums to worry about.

A pump action .357 like the Timberwolf carbine would be even better, but as far as I know there are now plans to bring this little gem back.

David

 

[Dave Markowitz]

If someone -- regardless of gender -- who intends to get a firearm for home defense, but doesn't plan to practice with it or get to know how it works, we have the makings of a serious problem here.

Certainly some designs are better than others from an ease-of-learning standpoint. E.g., a single or double-barrel shotgun has about the simplest manual of arms you can get. Even a single shot scattergun puts you way ahead of an intruder who's armed with anything less than a gun.

As mentioned previously, revolving rifles have the problem of the barrel-cylinder gap. Chamber one in .357 and you are going to scorch your forearm from the blast from there.

That being said, one manufacturer does target the type of user Skibane's concerned about: Mossberg. They make a variant of their Model 500 pumpgun in .410 bore with a 3" chamber, called the "Home Security .410". See <http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/Specpurp.htm>. To me it looks almost ideal for the posited situation, although I'd prefer it without the spreader choke.

Another good choice IMO would be a Saiga in .410, as long as the user is willing to get a couple hours instruction. Since it's based on the Kalashnikov design it's reliable and will stand up to neglect most other designs won't. And the ammo is fed from a detachable magazine, which simplifies loading it in a hurry (if the gun needs to be kept unloaded). Further, the gas operated action will help soften recoil.

 

[Dorrin79]

I dunno, my mother keeps a 12ga autoloader (either a Winchester or a Remington, I forget which) by the bed loaded with 00 buck.

She's 5'7", 150 lbs or so, and not particularly strong.

Of course, my mom's pretty hardcore compared to most women.

I have no doubt that my wife would be able to handle my Mossberg 500 12ga in a HD situation, although I'm sure her shoulder would hurt for a long time afterwards.

I think that a 20ga shotgun is probably the best HD weapon for women/young people/small people, generally speaking.

Rifles have far too many overpenetration concerns for me to use them for HD. If I lived out on 100 acres in the Hill country I might feel differently...

 

[Shootin' Buddy]

Snowman, I am in no way implying that women are "dumbed down". However, as a group, they simply aren't interested in things mechanical in the same way that most men are. With respect to firearms, this trait makes simplicity of operation *VERY* important.

Skibane,

I've seen a woman manipulate and coordinate 12 separate controls on a sewing machine, then with a dexterity requiring both hands, a set of sharp teeth and a foot produce a dress faster than you can see what's going on.

I hardly think three levers on any firearm presents a particular challenge to any woman who is actually interested in shooting.

Don

 

[RON in PA]

My take is this: long guns are not the best for home defense, shotguns are better than rifles if you go that route, and handguns, esp. revolvers, are best. Overpenetration is always a concern and rifles are the worst in this regard. Long guns are clumsy in the close quarters environment in a home (IMHO if the Bad Guy isn't inside the house you don't have jutification to shoot) and easy to grab. Handguns are better for retention. I like the simplicity of revolvers for both sexes, but since, in my experience, women are harder workers and more willing to learn, a semi-auto is no problem. The important thing is good training in both gun handling and mind-set.

 

[Onslaught]

I'm not going to TOUCH the actual discussion itself, but I'll just add that Winchester used to make a "Lady Defender" shotgun, but I don't see it offered anymore. They do make a 20 gauge, 8-shot Defender that could easily be fitted with a "youth" model stock.

I think a shotgun is a much better long gun option than a rifle in most cases unless you live on "property".

One thing I have learned is that, for the most part, a husband cannot teach his own wife anything about a subject she already has knowledge on. I.E. my wife, who's father taught her how to shoot and had her legally carrying a pistol with her since she was 18 (small town Alabama, 12 years ago...) doesn't understand that if you don't continue to shoot, and shoot often, you lose your skill. She was a great shot when we met because she had time to shoot and did so often. She hasn't been in years, but still feels confident that she could shoot what she aimed at. Nonetheless, I keep a Walther P99 on her side of the bed in a pistol safe, and I'm planning on buying the Winchester 20 gauge at some point in the near future.

 

[Black Snowman]

What are you talking about Onslaught, you're at least as much on the origional topic as I am

 

[cordex]

I think a reasonably good home defense weapon for someone with limited upper body strength (regardless of gender) might be a short, light, reliable, large capacity .22LR submachine gun with a 3 position selector ... safe, 2 round burst and 4 round burst with an optional block on the 4 and a mid-range ROF. The gun should be easy to clean and be as reliable as the ammunition. Accuracy should be "minute of torso" at 50 yards (much longer range than a HD really needs) but is not a primary concern.

I figure it'd be light enough to be useable by many physically weak individuals, give some of the the benefits of a shotgun (lots of projos on target quickly) without the recoil that some dislike, be easy to shoot and be inexpensive to train with.

Why Safe, 2, 4 round burst instead of Safe, One, Three or Safe, One, Full?
If it's worth shooting once, it's worth shooting again, right? Doubly so with the .22LR. Full auto (beyond burst) doesn't strike me as a good idea for someone not willing to practice trigger control. Plus, having two burst settings gives the user an option to "drop the hammer" a bit harder, but if they accidentally go too far, it won't be all that surprising (the gun will stop firing pretty quickly either way).

.22LR may not be the best performer, but if you automatically put at least 2 into whatever you're aiming at, you're going to do some pretty respectable damage. Additionally, the overpenetration issue becomes less importan

 

[MolonLabe416]

I was a state certified firearms instructor for some time and have had the opportunity to train with Col. Cooper, Tom Givens, Randy Cain, et. al. I've taught a number of women to shoot. I've been in class with a number of women. Women are as capable as men of operating a self-loading weapon. Women are usually much eaiser to teach as they have no pre-concieved notions and they listen. Far too many men think they are either Starsky or Hutch and have to unlearn bad habits. A woman, in general, should choose a weapon using the same critera as a man.