The under rated cheap knife.

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a message from Lilliput. . . . .

I am inclined to look askance at anyone who admits to currently owning zero knives but nonetheless sees fit to advise us regarding knife ownership. Countless generations of " envious Lilliputians " have adopted and adapted field expedient tools and techniques to the business at hand. Practicality and availability tend to hold sway in the real world regardless of the opinions of armchair commandos. Low tech and low budget do not necessarily equate to low effectiveness if you have skill and imagination.
Well, there's lots of stuff here.

Many themes.

Mr. Levitian, sir, you have made a lot of posts I agree extremely strongly with. I have trained more with sticks than any other weapon, probably even including firearms. I believe, and preach, that defensive users are better served with an impact tool, preferably one with reach, if faced with an attack by blade and firearms are unavailable.

I also agree strongly with the theme that dedication, perhaps combined with skill, is much more important than the actual tool.
Too many people make the mistake of thinking that just because you have the high end what-ever, it gives you an advantage.

Well, this is a problematic statement. It's almost true, but it's deceptive. I know people who could kill an attacker with anything or nothing. These people are the closest thing to unstoppable you'll find in human flesh. One of these masters would prefer a quality weapon, but you're right, can kill with anything. On the other hand, I have trained with many "scary good" people (and have approached that level myself, a few times). The chances of two masters fighting are nil. Won't happen. I've seen two that I know of in my life, among the thousands of people I would prefer not to cross.

I've seen an unknown number of scary good- perhaps about one hundred, at a rough guess. It is not unthinkable that two people of that skill level fight. If that were to happen, other factors being equal, who wins? I'm just going to guess it might be the guy with a dedicated tool, instead of the disposable clumsy one. Might never happen. Probably won't. Could. Because- to hell with "high end"- a well designed tool DOES give you an advantage. Just like training, mindset, and physical capability are advantages, too.

Some folks might believe I'm a fan of "tactical". Well, I like things that work. The "tactical" things I like are bargains in their areas. What defines a bargain? Incredible value for the price.

Spyderco? Incredible value. Less hype, more use. Superb ergonomics. Excellent heat treats. Great steels. Commendable business ethics. And if you chose to fight with a folding knife, you'd never find a better choice than an appropriate Spyderco. If I had to fight with a folder, I'd pick a Chinook II or III over even the nicest Sebenza.

Cheap? Hell, no. Chinooks can be had from about $130.

What is my life worth?

Maybe they are cheap, in comparison.

Let's look at John Greco's knives. I love the codger. I'm really happy he's making knives again. You know why I love Grecos? Because they're incredible values. I've seen knives of John's that other custom/semi-custom makers would have sold for at least double what John sold them for. And they're good knives. I have a small one that I think I'll send to a good friend, because regardless of what it costs (not that much), it's a really good knife, and he had a birthday. I'll then be left with a sole Greco. It, too, is a really good knife.

The first knife of John's I picked up, I didn't really want to touch. It was ugly. I was uninterested. A friend practically forced it into my hand, and to be polite, I held it.

And I could feel it, like a shock. That ugly knife had something you would never find in a knife from a box store. My eyes got big. "Oh, my god." I don't mean balance. I don't mean weight. It was something else, and either you know what I mean, or I'll never be able to explain it to you. You'd better believe I'd prefer that ugly knife be in my hand should I ever be forced to defend myself and something sharp be in the only thing within reach.

Now, I have often suggested that people be prepared to defend themselves with whatever is at hand. I firmly believe this. I also believe in making your dollar count. I own more HI fixed blades than anything else, though I can't seem to help giving them away to friends. Though HI prices have been forced upward because of political instability and rising fuel costs, those knives usually still cost 1/3 or less what an equivalent hand-forged U.S. knife would run.

Here's the deal. Use what you can reasonably afford. Don't be fooled by hype and advertising. Listen and learn. If you're actually planning on self-defense being a potential reason for purchasing a knife, in general, you're best served with a knife that's a reasonable size. It should be easily opened with one hand, if a folder. It should be sturdily constructed. It should cut well. If it's a folder, it should lock.

Just because other things have been pressed into service, in no way changes the fact that a dedicated tool will do the job better. My "new" CRX has a window handle that falls off. I tried to use a Guppy Multi-tool to roll the window up today when I couldn't find the handle, and then finally borrowed vise-grips to roll my window up, because the Guppy wouldn't work at all. The handle would have worked best.

So, to all, don't imagine spending more automatically means buying something that works better. Don't believe that something will work best because it's a neato color, or looks cool. At the same time, don't go for false economy. Do reasonable research, look reasonably and intelligently at your budget, and make good decisions.

Live well, prosper, and accept my apologies for what's probably my longest post ever.

Posted by sm:
At bad breath distance a inexpensive tool, such as a knife, AA Maglite, No. 2 pencil, Bic disposable ink pen and the like is proven.

I'm living proof they're NOT proven.

I've been stabbed in the throat with a small, cheap pocket knife, and was still able to beat the bejeezus out of the guy who stabbed me. Didn't even have to go to the hospital.

I was stabbed with a pencil in junior high, and still beat up the guy who stabbed me. No trip to the hospital.

I was stabbed with a disposable ink pen in high school, same result as the first two---beat up the attacker and no hospital trip.

While in the U.S. Army, I personally witnessed a guy take a very hard blow from a four D-cell Maglite. Those things are HEAVY---I know because I've owned a couple. He merely flinched a bit and proceeded to beat up his attacker.

Also while in the Army, I personally saw a guy in a bar fight get hit hard by a large bartender who was wielding a large club. The guy went down for a second or two, then we heard a loud roar as he rose rapidly from the floor and proceeded to beat the Hell out of at least half a dozen guys, including the large bartender who had struck him.

Yet another time in the Army, I personally observed a guy take a hard hit in the head with a solid oak club about the length of a police billy club. The guy winced a bit, then proceeded to beat his attacker senseless.

Those "dime store arsenal" items may work "every time" in the fertile imaginations of internet forum storytellers, but in real life they're often not that effective.
John, good posting. Determination is the "starter switch" for success in fighting or any other worthwhile endeavor. Without it, good techniques and superb weapons will not function as well as expected. Having said that, I would like to remind our readers of a statement Duncan Long, the author of a book on edged weaponry, made about knives. Long stated that the mere possession of a bowie knife would not transform someone into a modern Jim Bowie. In other words, the hardware does not make a person into something. That is the purpose of training. This is a point that can not be overemphasized.

If my goal is to get away rather than to stand my ground and beat up my opponent, then a key parameter has changed. My judgment of whether the weapon has "worked" or not will be different, too.

That's not to disparage fine tools, either.

The key question is, "what is it for?"
Posted by hangtime:
a message from Lilliput. . . . .
I am inclined to look askance at anyone who admits to currently owning zero knives but nonetheless sees fit to advise us regarding knife ownership. Countless generations of " envious Lilliputians " have adopted and adapted field expedient tools and techniques to the business at hand. Practicality and availability tend to hold sway in the real world regardless of the opinions of armchair commandos. Low tech and low budget do not necessarily equate to low effectiveness if you have skill and imagination.

I could honestly care less what you're inclined to look "askance" at. In my younger days when I was a "mighty warrior" :barf: like yourself, I owned quite a few knives, thank you.

Never felt the need for high dollar customs and expensive "fighting" knives---but I certainly owned my fair share of quality production knives such as Buck etc. There's nothing wrong with owning a quality knife, regardless of what the "skill and imagination" crowd thinks. :p

It doesn't take a world renown knife "expert" :rolleyes: like yourself to recognize the difference between a two dollar kitchen knife hanging in a grocery store aisle, and a nice 75.00 dollar Buck or something similar.

The Buck will last MUCH longer and be FAR superior for ANY task, when compared to a 2.00 plastic kitchen knife.

If you think a 2.00 kitchen knife is "just as good" as a quality knife such as a Buck, I'll have to admit that you've got "imagination". :evil:
Let's be sure we keep it polite, guys.

Defensory, I've disagreed with you on some things in the past, but this statement
There's a happy in between when purchasing both knives and firearms
would seem to be something few members would disagree with.

I reread my original post. . .

and I can't find any of the things you attribute to me. I thought you might be clairvoyant but then I remembered that you were stabbed three times so that didn't seem likely. Perhaps you're just insufferable. For what its worth, the translation of my signature line is "Who does not understand should learn or be silent." 'Nuff said.

It's late, and I am going to bed. I'm closing the thread for now. It may be opened at moderator discretion tomorrow.

Enough with the insults.

Highly motivated and poor probably beats uncaring and well equipped. Skilled and motivated beats 'em both. Anything can be well applied. As I said in another thread recently, I was in theater when an ANA troop was lit up by 30mm. He lived. Lotsa people have lived after taking 7.62x39mm rounds.

Lots of people have died, too.

Guys, like John said, keep it civil.

What is it, a full moon or something?:confused: Oh, yeah. It is a full moon.:eek:

I think we've talked past each other enough on this thread anyway and if John doesn't mind we'll just let it stay closed.
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