stchman
Member
Best HD firearm is a shotgun.
The use of AR and AK Pistols for home defense
- Thread starter george burns
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Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Often it is, but not always.
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Zerodefect
member
I always knew Jerry M was cool.
But that's like something out of a video game. Guess the braces really do work!
But that's like something out of a video game. Guess the braces really do work!
Zaydok Allen
Member
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LOL! That is a great video. I love the music in the background.
justice06rr
Member
DPris said:
Please try to run a handgun vs an AR Pistol with the Sigbrace in the same HD scenario and see which one will score better hits on targets both close and mid-range, multiple targets which may involve more rounds than a handgun capacity e.g. 13rds.
There is no way a pistol will have full advantage over an AR pistol with a Sigbrace. In some instances, the pistol will have the advantage in with less weight/bulk, but has the disadvantage with firepower and accuracy. There's a saying that you use your pistol to fight your way to your rifle, in this case an AR/AK pistol with the brace which can be legally shouldered just like a carbine.
Soldiers are trained to clear buildings with M4's pretty effectively. I don't see an issue if you go even shorter with an AR15 Pistol w/ a sigbrace shouldered--which is effectively a SBR. Give a Marine the option of a rifle vs a pistol, and I'd like to see which one he will choose...
Training plays a big role, along with your equipment. But paper does not go down like a bad guy; if a real person is shot with a 9mm or 45 vs 5.56 or 300BLK, rifle round will usually come out ahead.
I've also done some civilian training with IDPA and 3Gun matches, many in close quarters. With equal training in pistol and rifle, the rifle will usually always come out ahead if used properly.
Zaydok Allen
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No one has brought up a bullpup. I think a Tavor would be a good solution if you really want rifle power in a short package, plus you keep the benefit of an M4 length barrel. Of course, you need to pony up the cash for one.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
cougar1717
Member
I think the thing that gets me about every "HD scenario / what is best" thread is that it always seems to get compared to a 3 gun or IDPA stage. Not that training isn't great, but there are so many variables that don't compare to a game. I guess some of this discussion seems silly to me because several years ago my grandparents' house was burglarized at night, while they were home. Bottom line was no shots fired, burglar escaped and later caught by police, valuables recovered. But none of it went according to the "typical HD scenario" that forums generate.
In their situation, a shouldered AR or AK pistol would not have been as useful as the handgun he had or a shotgun. IMHO, unless you have a weapon mounted light, one hand needs to hold the flashlight. Thinking about their situation, it made me think about how short some of the actual distances are: bed to bedroom door, bedroom door to front door, etc.
I also think that when we think about these situations, preparing individuals should think more from a LEO frame of reference than a military frame of reference. Castle doctrine considered, these are questions that will need to be considered: Are you in fear for your life? Was your response appropriate for the level of force able to be exerted against you? What happened once the BG was no longer a threat to you? Did you light him up with the rest of the 30 round mag while screaming "This is MURICA!"?
Kidding aside, was any attempt made to preserve the BG's life after they posed no threat to you? Who else is in the house that may be unintentionally injured if shots are fired? Have I identified the target as a threat before I pull the trigger so I don't harm a loved one? Just some things to think about for prepared people, like THR members.
In their situation, a shouldered AR or AK pistol would not have been as useful as the handgun he had or a shotgun. IMHO, unless you have a weapon mounted light, one hand needs to hold the flashlight. Thinking about their situation, it made me think about how short some of the actual distances are: bed to bedroom door, bedroom door to front door, etc.
I also think that when we think about these situations, preparing individuals should think more from a LEO frame of reference than a military frame of reference. Castle doctrine considered, these are questions that will need to be considered: Are you in fear for your life? Was your response appropriate for the level of force able to be exerted against you? What happened once the BG was no longer a threat to you? Did you light him up with the rest of the 30 round mag while screaming "This is MURICA!"?
Kidding aside, was any attempt made to preserve the BG's life after they posed no threat to you? Who else is in the house that may be unintentionally injured if shots are fired? Have I identified the target as a threat before I pull the trigger so I don't harm a loved one? Just some things to think about for prepared people, like THR members.Zach S
Member
OP,
I built an AR15 300BO pistol with Law Tactical folding mechanism and brace. It made the pistol very compact even when the Law Tactical mechanism added length.
The one thing I disliked about my AR15 pistol was that I cannot fire it folded (without major issues).
I ended up buying a PAP M85NP(uses AR15 mags) since AK I can fire it folded or unfolded. I added Stormwerkz folding mechanism and all is good.
Get yourself AK Builder 4pc brake and you won't see the flash while shooting at night.
I built an AR15 300BO pistol with Law Tactical folding mechanism and brace. It made the pistol very compact even when the Law Tactical mechanism added length.
The one thing I disliked about my AR15 pistol was that I cannot fire it folded (without major issues).
I ended up buying a PAP M85NP(uses AR15 mags) since AK I can fire it folded or unfolded. I added Stormwerkz folding mechanism and all is good.
Get yourself AK Builder 4pc brake and you won't see the flash while shooting at night.
My understanding is that the spot weld that some of the AK pistols are sold with is only to make the gun legal for states that don't allow threaded barrels. Since it's already classified as a pistol it isn't required for the length.
justice06rr
Member
They are not really games.
IDPA, which stands for International Defensiv Pistol Association, uses stages that closely resemble HD/SD situations. You have to use cover and proper shooting techniques. On the flipside, USPSA or IPSC are more like 'games' because it focuses more on speed shooting and does not emphasize the use of cover and concealment.
2-Gun or 3-Gun is great for practice in case you use multiple guns in your HD setup i.e. rifle/shotgun with a sidearm. Depending on the organization hosting the event, some of them can be geared towards HD as well. I shoot in 3-Gun and IDPA events and go for training (not for the competition). IMO being efficient and safe is better than being fast and competitive.
How else would you train for shooting scenarios? Certainly static shooting in an indoor range does not give you the same effect as shooting events like IDPA and Multi-Gun. Also the more practice you have with your firearms the better you will be when you have to use them in a real life HD/SD situation. Most indoor ranges I go to does not allow shooting from cover or drawing from concealment/holster.
Zerodefect
member
I just wish IDPA went back to regular speed reloads.
Chumps worried about not damaging their mags by dropping them would reload with retention or tac reload. Then complained about having a disadvantage to the rest of us not scared of dropping mags. Now we all have to tac reload.
A stupid rule. It's going to stink when someone gets lit up for real because they accidentally tac reloaded instead of speed reloaded. Plenty of shot up Marines out there with that story lesson. Some ranges still do it the correct way though.
Chumps worried about not damaging their mags by dropping them would reload with retention or tac reload. Then complained about having a disadvantage to the rest of us not scared of dropping mags. Now we all have to tac reload.
A stupid rule. It's going to stink when someone gets lit up for real because they accidentally tac reloaded instead of speed reloaded. Plenty of shot up Marines out there with that story lesson. Some ranges still do it the correct way though.
I doubt it'll matter. If you're reloading in a real shootout the last thing you'll be worried about is mag retention.
Honestly it's extremely unlikely you'll need to reload at all if you're not in law enforcement so it's more of an argument for keyboard warriors than realists anyways.
Zerodefect
member
I hope so.
I'm sure some IDPA events still use regular just drop the darn mag reloads. Hopefully. Retention just seems like competition creating training scars.
I'm sure some IDPA events still use regular just drop the darn mag reloads. Hopefully. Retention just seems like competition creating training scars.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Just because something might be needed infrequently does not mean it is a notion relegated folks you insult for discussing it. After all, most of us will never draw and certainly never fire a gun in self defense.
Competitions like IDPA are great for honing gun handling and marksmanship skills under mild stress. They are not training though nor are you learning tactics.
Training is received from qualified instructors, practice is what you do with the training after. After good training you can practice gun handling, marksmanship or tactics.
But running through a canned IDPA stage is neither training nor training in tactics (it may or may not be good tactics employed in the stage, since its on the clock, usually not).
My wife and I recently went to a local place that has a 300 degree video simulator. That was good training putting everything together in scenarios against opponents talking and shooting back who reacted based on your actions. (Via the instructor/controllers input at the computer) Since there was an instructor working the scenario and giving feedback it was training. As there was no clock you were free to talk or yell commands in hopes it could be resolved without having to shoot.
IMO a personal training plan should be anchored in high quality professional instruction, built upon with personal practice (can certainly include IDPA etc.) and supplemented with some sort of interactive fof training adding that final element you can't ever get on a range, even in a shoot house.
Training is received from qualified instructors, practice is what you do with the training after. After good training you can practice gun handling, marksmanship or tactics.
But running through a canned IDPA stage is neither training nor training in tactics (it may or may not be good tactics employed in the stage, since its on the clock, usually not).
My wife and I recently went to a local place that has a 300 degree video simulator. That was good training putting everything together in scenarios against opponents talking and shooting back who reacted based on your actions. (Via the instructor/controllers input at the computer) Since there was an instructor working the scenario and giving feedback it was training. As there was no clock you were free to talk or yell commands in hopes it could be resolved without having to shoot.
IMO a personal training plan should be anchored in high quality professional instruction, built upon with personal practice (can certainly include IDPA etc.) and supplemented with some sort of interactive fof training adding that final element you can't ever get on a range, even in a shoot house.
I think the best reason to train emergency reloads isn't for capacity, but for Murphy. If the mag wasn't quite seated or the mag release got smashed while seated, mag falls, emergency reload.
I have seen this happen in a shootout (dash cam), dumb BG accidentally drops his mag under stress, fumbles around on the ground, re-inserts it, then runs to his car and drives away. This was all after being fatally wounded by the cop, he collapsed just down the road. That is why having a spare mag is good and why even a fatal handgun wound isn't necessarily a "stop" and why you fight to the end.
I have seen this happen in a shootout (dash cam), dumb BG accidentally drops his mag under stress, fumbles around on the ground, re-inserts it, then runs to his car and drives away. This was all after being fatally wounded by the cop, he collapsed just down the road. That is why having a spare mag is good and why even a fatal handgun wound isn't necessarily a "stop" and why you fight to the end.
Loud, loud, LOUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Way too loud for inside the house, unless you have a can on it.
Do you want your expensive can sitting in evidence while it is sorted out?
I wouldn't.
I bought the AK pistol for a range toy.
Then, along came the brace.
Now, I can use it for a brush gun.
Way too loud for inside the house, unless you have a can on it.
Do you want your expensive can sitting in evidence while it is sorted out?
I wouldn't.
I bought the AK pistol for a range toy.
Then, along came the brace.
Now, I can use it for a brush gun.
I wouldn't care. The odds are long against me being involved in a HD shooting. If that day ever comes, my first priority is saving my family, for that, I want to use the best weapons and gear I can practicably afford. If that is a $2k SBR and a $1k can, so be it. Methinks worrying about what may happen in an evidence locker and so choosing a lesser capable firearm is a false economy.
I'm not saying a canned SBR is best for HD (let's not go there), but if I thought that, and if I used it to save my life, then I got waaaaayyyyy more monies' worth out of it in that moment than if it was passed down for 3 generations of my family and shot until the barrel wore out. YMMV.
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