These Primers Look Bad?

[12guns]

I've had several misfires from my sig 220. I've read about light primer strikes and initially thought the malfunction was the gun, not the primers. My sig 1911 shot these primers just fine. My 220 still gives a lighter primer strike and won't always set them off. They are Winchester LR or LP primers, no idea how old. I decapped them to replace with CCI 200 and noticed they don't look very uniform on the underside. I may have not seated them all the way either, but they were flush with the case-end. Any thought? Sorry for the crappy pics. Hope they show up.

 

[12guns]

Pic

 

[blarby]

but they were flush with the case-end.

Not deep enough.

Should be a few thou deeper than the head.

Someone around here has good pic of it, im sure.

 

[12guns]

Thanks for the reply. The inside of the back looks nasty. Not clean and uniform like the cci primers I compared them to. I use a hand priming tool and some of these primers show a mark from the pressure of seating them. Maybe I'll have better luck with newer primers.

 

[blarby]

Generally, primers don't go "bad"

However, those top two in the bottom pic do appear to have some sort of corrosion goin on.

You can mess em up from seating them improperly, or removing them poorly and reseating them rough.

Generally once you strike a primer, if it doesn't go off on the next hit, you've dislodged the pellet/anvil and its not gonna fire.

With that said, I had one just today I hit four times before it went off- so absolutes are just like most statistics.

You get a good deal on some "basement leftovers" or something to that effect ?

FWIW if you are trying to stick LR primers in LP cases.... you could be having all sorts of problems !

 

[chris in va]

After using two hand priming tools, I suggest a Lee Ram Prime. It's cheap and gives a lot better leverage and feel for seating.

And yes, you want them seated below flush just a hair.

 

[45lcshooter]

Hit the primer with a hammer (wear safety glasses first) if it goes POOOOOWWWWWW then its was a good primer and you need to seat further.


I do all my own hand priming, because then i know it is done to where i want it. yes it would be a pain if you wanted to do 1000's of rounds in a weekend.

If you are using a hand primer device, squeeze it harder, and away from you. Ive reloaded over 10,000 rds of various ammo, and still i haven't had a primer go off while priming the case, just make sure you have the correct plunger in for Small or Large primers

 

[Steve C]

Neophyte re-loaders are often timid about seating primers usually due to the warning about "crushing" the primer. It takes a lot of force to crush a primer and even then the ammo will usually work.

Primers need to be seated to the bottom of the pocket with enough pressure to give it a "set". Normally you can feel the primer seat into the bottom of the pocket. Depth measurement of the primer is useless information regarding proper primer seating. The only depth of importance is that primers must be flush or preferably a little below the base of the case which they will be if the primer is the proper type for the ammo and seated properly to the bottom of the pocket.

Don't know where this idea that primer seating depth measurements are useful in determining a properly seated primer.

 

[TroyUT]

Is it possible that a rifle primer would take more force to ignite than a pistol primer thus causing these FTF issues in a handgun?

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Is it possible that a rifle primer would take more force to ignite than a pistol primer thus causing these FTF issues in a handgun

Absolutely, they have a thicker cup to take a higher pressure that the rifle ammo will generate. Especially if the pistol has had the springs replaced with lighter one to refuse trigger weight.

 

[243winxb]

My sig 1911 shot these primers just fine.

Would seem to be a sig 220 problem.

 

[LiveLife]

They are Winchester LR or LP primers, no idea how old.

Since priming compounds are sealed in the cup with barriers/sealants, it is difficult to kill primers and they often won't go bad even after decades of improper storage. Keep in mind the harsh conditions of hot/cold under which military ammunition are stored all around the world and they still go bang after decades of neglect. Just leaving primers out in the garage or exposing to a little moisture won't kill them as they were made to last. Only chemically neutralizing them by soaking in solutions that will seep through the barriers/sealants (if they do at all) will affect the priming compound (see picture below of priming compound barriers/sealants).

I've had several misfires from my sig 220. I've read about light primer strikes and initially thought the malfunction was the gun, not the primers. My sig 1911 shot these primers just fine. My 220 still gives a lighter primer strike and won't always set them off. They are Winchester LR or LP primers

Anvil tip height and shape varies by brand and amount of seating depth can differ to properly set the anvil tip against the priming compound (especially if the primer pocket is made deeper by modification by reloaders).

Primer pictures showing different anvil shapes/tip heights (and how much anvil feet stick below the cup) and sealant cup colors. As you can see, length of anvil feet sticking out below the cup varies by brand and may need to be seated at different depths to set the anvil tip against the priming compound for primer ignition. - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=630512&page=2

When I had some misfire issues with Tula SP primers with harder cups in Glock/M&P, I tested them in 45ACP cases with small primer pockets and all of my 45 pistols (Sig 1911/M&P45/PT145) fired them without issues (Yup, that's my final solution for these lot # of misbehaving Tula SP primers ).

Various headstamp cases with misbehaving Tula SP primers properly igniting in striker fired M&P45/PT145

Same misbehaving primers behaving properly in different headstamp caes when shot with hammer action from Sig 1911 .

Since I am not aware of Winchester brass colored primers having harder cuips, I would suspect primer seating depth and/or the Sig 220.

As Steve C and others posted, contrary to popular belief, simply seating a primer to flush won't always set the anvil against the priming compound as primer pocket depths can vary (especially if they have been modified by reloaders). Hitting a primer with a hammer may not properly test whether the primer is good.

Instead, seat the offending primers in resized cases (no powder/no bullet) and fire them in the Sig 1911 (wear ear protection as sound will be a loud pop). If they don't fire seated flush but fire on subsequent firing, the anvil feet did not reach the bottom of the primer pocket when seated. If you are able to seat them below flush (say .004" or felt by finger tip) and they all fire with Sig 1911, then they are good primers not seated deep enough.

Pictures of flush seated primers.

Pictures of .004" below flush (what I aim for) and .008" (crush depth done just to show that these all fired so you can really seat them deep without worries of damaging primers):

 

[LiveLife]

Is it possible that a rifle primer would take more force to ignite than a pistol primer thus causing these FTF issues in a handgun?

That's what I used to think and test fired SR primers in Glocks when I considered 9mm Major load development using SR primers. All the SR primers ignited without issues, even the "known" harder cup CCI.

 

[Comrade Mike]

I've had several misfires from my sig 220. I've read about light primer strikes and initially thought the malfunction was the gun, not the primers. My sig 1911 shot these primers just fine. My 220 still gives a lighter primer strike and won't always set them off. They are Winchester LR or LP primers, no idea how old. I decapped them to replace with CCI 200 and noticed they don't look very uniform on the underside. I may have not seated them all the way either, but they were flush with the case-end. Any thought? Sorry for the crappy pics. Hope they show up.

You might be using rifle primers. Winchester LP primers are red not blue/ green.

 

[12guns]

I'm fairly sure they were in fact large rifle primers. While it's a common practice, maybe it's not for my gun. I'll try some cci large rifle just to see how they do, and only because I have a few thousand of them. Thanks for all the help!

 

[243winxb]

Large rifle & pistol primer are different sizes. The standard pocket for a Large Pistol primer is somewhat shallower than its Large Rifle counterpart, specifically, 0.008 to 0.009 inch less.

Read more: http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/#ixzz2qzP2eJe5

 

[rcmodel]

I'm fairly sure they were in fact large rifle primers

Then you should not have used them in .45 ACP.

Lg Pistol & Lg Rifle primers are not the same cup height, and neither is the depth of the primer pockets in pistol & rifle brass.

rc

 

[12guns]

I'm sure you are right, however there are lots and lots of people who do use large rifle primers in large pistol cases. I used some one time that were too tall, that was not the case here. I'll pick up some LP primers if I can find some, but for now the cci LR will be my next step. I'll be sure to seat them right as well.

 

[12guns]

Let me rephrase that. I agree it may not be the ideal situation, but it is done more than some want to admit with good results. No worries, I'll pick up some LP primers when I can. I bet that fixes my problem.

 

[rcmodel]

But, you are the one that came here with a misfire problem.

You have been told the Rifle primers are harder then pistol primers.
And told they are not the right cup height for pistol brass.

So two strikes against you having good luck using them.
Despite what 'lots & lots' of others might have done.

So, I don't know what else to tell you.

rc

 

[TroyUT]

Excellent data BDS!

 

[Comrade Mike]

I'm fairly sure they were in fact large rifle primers. While it's a common practice, maybe it's not for my gun. I'll try some cci large rifle just to see how they do, and only because I have a few thousand of them. Thanks for all the help!

Well there's your problem. Don't use them.

 

[gamestalker]

Does that pistol have problems with factory ammo too?

Just because a different pistol will set them off doesn't mean it' a firearm problem, could just be that one has a heavier firing pin spring, thus it's capable of creating enough kinetic energy to compensate for a shallow primer.

And no. those primers look just fine. Been doing this for about 30 yrs. and have yet to come across a bad primer.

GS

 

[Swampman]

Originally posted by 12guns

there are lots and lots of people who do use large rifle primers in large pistol cases.

If by "large pistol cases", you mean .500 S&W, .460 S&W and .500 Linebaugh, I'll agree with you, but those cases are DESIGNED to operate with large rifle primers.

I know a bunch of people that reload .45 ACP and I haven't met a single one that uses large rifle primers to spark 'em off.

Just sayin'...

 

[blarby]

and I haven't met a single one that uses large rifle primers to spark 'em off.

I have, just to see if you could.

Last year.

Cutting the primer pockets was a major PITA. Can ? Sure.

Want ?

Oh heck no.