Lagadelphia
Member
How can you call this guy a mercenary? He worked in SA for 10 years. That kinda predates the post war contracts you know.
They just beheaded another American...
- Thread starter Ex-MA Hole
- Start date
- Status
joe sixpack
Member
The way I see it the terrorists are not just whacking some guy, they are
videotaping it and making sure that it gets out to upset as many people
as it possibly can. Sure, they know that fear is being created, especially
for those foreigners who work in the Arab countries, and their families.
But they also know that ultimately that fear turns into anger and rage,
and for a lot of people they probably skip the fear part and go directly
into anger.
So how are they going to benefit by enraging the U.S. would be my question. They have certainly upset a lot of people recently.
Mercedesrules has an answer. Not sure it's the answer.
Any other ideas? Possibilities?
cheers, ab
videotaping it and making sure that it gets out to upset as many people
as it possibly can. Sure, they know that fear is being created, especially
for those foreigners who work in the Arab countries, and their families.
But they also know that ultimately that fear turns into anger and rage,
and for a lot of people they probably skip the fear part and go directly
into anger.
So how are they going to benefit by enraging the U.S. would be my question. They have certainly upset a lot of people recently.
Mercedesrules has an answer. Not sure it's the answer.
Any other ideas? Possibilities?
cheers, ab
ravinraven
Member
I don't know who I loath...
...the most. Do I loath the filthy pig dung who commit these cowardly acts or their low life cheer leaders in the Liberal press or the even lower life pieces of dog vomit who call such people as Johnson mercenaries? The only thing I understand for sure about all of these types of people is that they are wastes of oxygen.
The absolute anti-American press fools who compare a bit of humility exercised at that Abu-pig-dung prison with murder should be listed on a web site so that all real Americans are aware of who they are.
ravinraven
...the most. Do I loath the filthy pig dung who commit these cowardly acts or their low life cheer leaders in the Liberal press or the even lower life pieces of dog vomit who call such people as Johnson mercenaries? The only thing I understand for sure about all of these types of people is that they are wastes of oxygen.
The absolute anti-American press fools who compare a bit of humility exercised at that Abu-pig-dung prison with murder should be listed on a web site so that all real Americans are aware of who they are.
ravinraven
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CannibalCrowley
Member
ravinraven
What the terrorists did was wrong and nothing changes that, but the same also applies to the crimes that were committed by coalition troops.
Would you consider David Passaro to be one of those "real Americans". In case you're unaware he's the contractor who was recently indicted for beating a detainee to death in Afghanistan. This incident happened a year ago so you can bet that more will be revealed as time goes on. As for calling what happened in Abu Ghraib "a bit of humility" I'm sure that you'd answer different if it was your son or daughter, unless you view rape and the other crimes as lessons in humility.
What the terrorists did was wrong and nothing changes that, but the same also applies to the crimes that were committed by coalition troops.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
CannibalCrowley, that's the "so's your old man" false argument. Ties in with the rhetorical, "Do two wrongs make a right?" bit. And you, yourself, pointed out that Passaro was indicted.
Overall, it seems to me that a person's status--contract agent or GI--is irrelevant. It's one thing to cope with issues of shootings and bombings by the militants. It's a whole 'nother ballgame for a deliberately planned and videotaped execution. This is not resistance in the name of a cause; it's a wilful effort to create terror among those who are not hostile to that cause.
I have a serious problem with the mindset of anybody who says that my very presence in a country is somehow a religious violation of the sanctity of the land upon which I stand--and that I should die just for being there. I thus can give no credence to any of others' arguments about "past treatment" or "western imperialism" or any of the other cutesy but meaningless natterings. They are inapplicable and irrelevant.
Art
Overall, it seems to me that a person's status--contract agent or GI--is irrelevant. It's one thing to cope with issues of shootings and bombings by the militants. It's a whole 'nother ballgame for a deliberately planned and videotaped execution. This is not resistance in the name of a cause; it's a wilful effort to create terror among those who are not hostile to that cause.
I have a serious problem with the mindset of anybody who says that my very presence in a country is somehow a religious violation of the sanctity of the land upon which I stand--and that I should die just for being there. I thus can give no credence to any of others' arguments about "past treatment" or "western imperialism" or any of the other cutesy but meaningless natterings. They are inapplicable and irrelevant.
Art
joe sixpack
Member
Here, here.
cheers, ab
cheers, ab
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
The main thing to remember if you insist on comparing the Passaro case to Hussein's loyalists is that rather than giving the guy a medal and a mistress, we're going to give him a fair trial and, if we find he did what it is alleged he did, put him in prison for a long time.
Very few people in the international community will give us any credit for that or even deign to mention it, but it's still true and we'll still do it.
Very few people in the international community will give us any credit for that or even deign to mention it, but it's still true and we'll still do it.
quote:
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Sorry. I am not outraged. When a person goes into a non-christian, american-hating, non-western world for a profit, I can't hold much sympathy for them. Johnson was considerin turning his soul and life over to Islam. I saw his wife and family. I am sorry for their loss. That is all. Put yourself in harms way for money is being mercenary.
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First I spent 10 years in Saudi your facts are way skewed. Saudi's for the most part like Americans, they are people just like you and I, good ones, bad ones, and all the flavors in between. I have no sympathy for any Christian though that is working on being a convert, I have known many never meet one that was worth a S@%T. One of the three original capitol crimes in Saudi Arabia is leaving the faith, translated they can convert Christians, Jews, Hindu's, but if one of their faithful converts the opposite direction its chop his head. We should also stop allowing the Saudis to fund and build mosques in the US, either they open up and let churches and temples be built inside the Magic Kingdom, or stop all of this soft money explotation of our system.
That aside many of the expates have been over in the Magic Kingdom since before the first gulf war, many still hold US security clearances, under US government contracts. The US does this for several reasons, 1 it is cheaper than basing US troops in these jobs, and two there is nowhere near the political fallout.
I have still many friends in there currently, I had friends on the compound where all the killings happened a few weeks ago. I hope they were gone. Yes now it is a good time to get out and stay out. Our State department is being wishy washy on this, issuing warnings. Translated that means we know it is a crappy situation but we are not going to risk the political implications, and the US interest both militarily and ecomomically to place Saudi on a the forbidden to travel list like Cuba, Beriut and Libya were. This could be done tommorrow, but it won't way too many dollars involved.
As much as I am outraged, bombing the middle east to a sea of glass IS NOT the answer. All that will accomplish is innocents being killed and loss of friends and allies. There has existed for over twenty years the ability to use assets in Saudi for intelliegence gathering, zip has been done. By now we should know every officer and enlisted member of their armed forces, most of the senior police, and the inner circle of the National Guard. I watched for years as the US Navy rotated the commanders in and out on a 1 year rotation, in 1 year in the kingdom they didn't know the language, were learning the cultural basics, not detailed analysis of the political situation.
These are a tribal people, note the two the Saudi's killed yesterday were cousins. The support structure for these terrorists is extended families and allies inside their cult sects of religion. Those that harbor, aid or finance these terrosits are just as guilty as the guy with the gun or the knife. Getting good intelliegence and hunting these thugs down and putting them in a shallow grave is the only way to combat it. This is not PC, its is dirty and wives, mothers and sisters are part of this network. We are not going to do this, why? where do we draw the line, and are we going to lower our ideals and standards to this base level.
Yes we need to respond, but I would much rather see a short list of 30-40 hunted down and killed, than 2-3 bombed and 150 uninvolved casualities. Someone mentioned the dancing in the streets by Iraqis over the bombing incident, my question where are the marine and army snipers? Selective, getting the targets we want.
I am also PO'd how the whole Iraq war issue, I was supportive of taking out Sadam, I spent my time in the sandbox and two wars against him. What I don't like is when we invaded Iraq is where was a commander like Patton or Chesty Puller? We should have hit Iraq and counted casualities by the mile, and the hour. Why are we spending wheelbarrels of money rebuilding that rat hole now? We should immediatly stop all reconstruction efforts on our tax dollars. Pull out every contractor that isn't mission critical to our military. Then work on stablising the mess over there, when and if it gets stablised then we can negote with the Iraqis on reconstruction efforts, that is if our congress approves at that time, if not tough S@@T you had your chance.
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Sorry. I am not outraged. When a person goes into a non-christian, american-hating, non-western world for a profit, I can't hold much sympathy for them. Johnson was considerin turning his soul and life over to Islam. I saw his wife and family. I am sorry for their loss. That is all. Put yourself in harms way for money is being mercenary.
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First I spent 10 years in Saudi your facts are way skewed. Saudi's for the most part like Americans, they are people just like you and I, good ones, bad ones, and all the flavors in between. I have no sympathy for any Christian though that is working on being a convert, I have known many never meet one that was worth a S@%T. One of the three original capitol crimes in Saudi Arabia is leaving the faith, translated they can convert Christians, Jews, Hindu's, but if one of their faithful converts the opposite direction its chop his head. We should also stop allowing the Saudis to fund and build mosques in the US, either they open up and let churches and temples be built inside the Magic Kingdom, or stop all of this soft money explotation of our system.
That aside many of the expates have been over in the Magic Kingdom since before the first gulf war, many still hold US security clearances, under US government contracts. The US does this for several reasons, 1 it is cheaper than basing US troops in these jobs, and two there is nowhere near the political fallout.
I have still many friends in there currently, I had friends on the compound where all the killings happened a few weeks ago. I hope they were gone. Yes now it is a good time to get out and stay out. Our State department is being wishy washy on this, issuing warnings. Translated that means we know it is a crappy situation but we are not going to risk the political implications, and the US interest both militarily and ecomomically to place Saudi on a the forbidden to travel list like Cuba, Beriut and Libya were. This could be done tommorrow, but it won't way too many dollars involved.
As much as I am outraged, bombing the middle east to a sea of glass IS NOT the answer. All that will accomplish is innocents being killed and loss of friends and allies. There has existed for over twenty years the ability to use assets in Saudi for intelliegence gathering, zip has been done. By now we should know every officer and enlisted member of their armed forces, most of the senior police, and the inner circle of the National Guard. I watched for years as the US Navy rotated the commanders in and out on a 1 year rotation, in 1 year in the kingdom they didn't know the language, were learning the cultural basics, not detailed analysis of the political situation.
These are a tribal people, note the two the Saudi's killed yesterday were cousins. The support structure for these terrorists is extended families and allies inside their cult sects of religion. Those that harbor, aid or finance these terrosits are just as guilty as the guy with the gun or the knife. Getting good intelliegence and hunting these thugs down and putting them in a shallow grave is the only way to combat it. This is not PC, its is dirty and wives, mothers and sisters are part of this network. We are not going to do this, why? where do we draw the line, and are we going to lower our ideals and standards to this base level.
Yes we need to respond, but I would much rather see a short list of 30-40 hunted down and killed, than 2-3 bombed and 150 uninvolved casualities. Someone mentioned the dancing in the streets by Iraqis over the bombing incident, my question where are the marine and army snipers? Selective, getting the targets we want.
I am also PO'd how the whole Iraq war issue, I was supportive of taking out Sadam, I spent my time in the sandbox and two wars against him. What I don't like is when we invaded Iraq is where was a commander like Patton or Chesty Puller? We should have hit Iraq and counted casualities by the mile, and the hour. Why are we spending wheelbarrels of money rebuilding that rat hole now? We should immediatly stop all reconstruction efforts on our tax dollars. Pull out every contractor that isn't mission critical to our military. Then work on stablising the mess over there, when and if it gets stablised then we can negote with the Iraqis on reconstruction efforts, that is if our congress approves at that time, if not tough S@@T you had your chance.
This is what I want to see on the next presidential speech.
It will start by an annoucer stating that Mr. President would like to make give a message to terrorists and murderers in the middle east. Because of recent events of kidnappings and beheadings.
Bush jr. walks to the podium, opens an old file. Looks at the camera and says. "On December 7th, 1941, Japanese vice-admiral Isoroku Yamamoto -- said 'I fear that we have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve.'
We need to send them a message to let them know that we will not tolerate these acts and we will retaliate. Screw the rules of war. They don't follow them, we should we. I know we were taught to not "stoop to the other guys level". But in this case, I think it's needed.
It will start by an annoucer stating that Mr. President would like to make give a message to terrorists and murderers in the middle east. Because of recent events of kidnappings and beheadings.
Bush jr. walks to the podium, opens an old file. Looks at the camera and says. "On December 7th, 1941, Japanese vice-admiral Isoroku Yamamoto -- said 'I fear that we have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve.'
We need to send them a message to let them know that we will not tolerate these acts and we will retaliate. Screw the rules of war. They don't follow them, we should we. I know we were taught to not "stoop to the other guys level". But in this case, I think it's needed.
pinblaster
Member
This ain't no game of checkers. We are fighting for the security of a free world. These Muslim extrerme fundamentalists must not and will not win. You cannot win a fight if your opponent is allowed to kick you in the b@lls while you have to fight by the Queensbury rules.ravinraven
Member
ROTFLMFAO
"but the same also applies to the crimes that were committed by coalition troops."
BULL SQUEEZE.
rr
__________________
"but the same also applies to the crimes that were committed by coalition troops."
BULL SQUEEZE.
rr
__________________
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I wish Americans (including some of you in this thread) would side with their country for a change, standing steadfast in support and defense with it's leaders against our enemies. Enemies I might add, who of a barbaric nature worship death, and in the name of their god WOULD CUT YOUR HEAD OFF IN A NEW YORK MINUTE.
IMHO, to try to explain reason or justification for why our nation was attacked, and it's citizens are being beheaded, smacks of pure yellow bellied liberalism, if not down right Anti-American sentiment.
Divided, this house will not stand.
IMHO, to try to explain reason or justification for why our nation was attacked, and it's citizens are being beheaded, smacks of pure yellow bellied liberalism, if not down right Anti-American sentiment.
Divided, this house will not stand.
I don't know why the US has not thought of doing this...
If I were in charge, I would secretly agree to release them, but before I did, I would jam a non-removable homing device up their innards that was set to start sending a signal about 12 hours later. I would then start bombing the absolute crap out of any place they showed up, starting with groups of 5 or more. A truly hi-tech device could be set to remain dormant until they received a certain signal themselves (sent by us) and would not operate at all if in an environment colder than 96 degrees, so that if they were somehow removed as used as a decoy, etc. they would not work. At the very least we could track the sorry pieces of sh*t.
We need to stop screwing around here. Will be making progress when everytime a terrorist hears the sound of US chopper blades thumping the air, they piss on themselves and start babbling.
The really sad thing is that it will take one or two more really bad attacks here in the US before we will take off the other glove.
Oh well, my two cents anyway - TEX
If I were in charge, I would secretly agree to release them, but before I did, I would jam a non-removable homing device up their innards that was set to start sending a signal about 12 hours later. I would then start bombing the absolute crap out of any place they showed up, starting with groups of 5 or more. A truly hi-tech device could be set to remain dormant until they received a certain signal themselves (sent by us) and would not operate at all if in an environment colder than 96 degrees, so that if they were somehow removed as used as a decoy, etc. they would not work. At the very least we could track the sorry pieces of sh*t.
We need to stop screwing around here. Will be making progress when everytime a terrorist hears the sound of US chopper blades thumping the air, they piss on themselves and start babbling.
The really sad thing is that it will take one or two more really bad attacks here in the US before we will take off the other glove.
Oh well, my two cents anyway - TEX
ravinraven
Member
It's a wonder....
...that kidnappings and individual murders are not being done by these pieces of pig vomit right here in the good ol' USA. Law abiding people in Washington DC are not armed by law. Law abiding people in SA are not armed by law.
These thugs can walk in to an apartment building in DC and walk out with dozens of people.
It will happen, methinks.
rr
...that kidnappings and individual murders are not being done by these pieces of pig vomit right here in the good ol' USA. Law abiding people in Washington DC are not armed by law. Law abiding people in SA are not armed by law.
These thugs can walk in to an apartment building in DC and walk out with dozens of people.
It will happen, methinks.
rr
What happened to Johnson's body? Did we not hear first that it was a lincense plate report someone called in while witnessing the dumping of his body? Now it is missing?Have the been any eyewitness's to the killing of the scum that abducted Johnson?
I think this is a case of bad reporting from the media. Read some more and it seems they stoped these clowns at a road block. Pretty standard stuff in the Magic Kingdom, road blocks and police checks.
Also use caution when getting news from there, it is all censored, and twisted, in the 10 years I worked there and read the papers about once a year there would be something factual in their news rags.
The best news is from the US or Brit reporters usually and piped out through satelite. But there are big restrictions on that, don't trust any of the news on face value.
Also use caution when getting news from there, it is all censored, and twisted, in the 10 years I worked there and read the papers about once a year there would be something factual in their news rags.
The best news is from the US or Brit reporters usually and piped out through satelite. But there are big restrictions on that, don't trust any of the news on face value.
I'm am very much PRO-AMERICAN but its not because I believe that our government is a perfect "christian" do-gooder. Over the past hundred years our government has done a great many things that have caused a great deal of the World to hate us with just cause . In the history of man, I can't think of any empire that was loved or liked. Being and staying on the top of the heap ain't easy you have to play "dirty" and do it well. The right of conquest is as good a reason as any for the U.S. to be top dog, lord knows we are a kinder, gentler "ruler" than most have been. Reading the real history of the United States isn't for the faint-hearted or the weak minded. This is why its not taught in grade school.
71Commander
Member
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040620/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_kidnappers__plot_2
MAGGIE MICHAEL, Associated Press Writer
CAIRO, Egypt - The al-Qaida cell that kidnapped and killed American Paul M. Johnson Jr. said in an online periodical Sunday that sympathizers in the kingdom's security forces supplied it with police uniforms and vehicles and set up fake checkpoints to facilitate last week's abduction.
The details of the kidnapping appeared in Sawt al-Jihad, or Voice of Holy War, a semimonthly online periodical published by al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula. A separate article, the final one written by cell leader Abdulaziz al-Moqrin, killed in a shootout Friday night, justified Johnson's slaying.
The first article said militants wearing police uniforms and using police cars set up a fake checkpoint on al-Khadma Road, leading the airport, near Imam Mohammed bin Saud University.
When Johnson's car approached the checkpoint June 12, the militants in police uniforms stopped his car — a Camry — detained him, anesthetized him and carried him to another car, the article said.
It said they then blew up Johnson's car.
"This car is the one the Saudi media claimed was laden with explosives and that (the security) seized and defused it," the article said.
Security officials said last week that Johnson's car was found near Imam University. Saudi press reports said the car was booby-trapped and later caught fire.
"A number of the cooperators who are sincere to their religion in the security apparatus donated those clothes and the police cars. We ask God to reward them and that they use their energy to serve Islam and the mujahedeen," the article read.
It said the militants decided to behead Johnson when Adel al-Jubeir, foreign affairs adviser to Crown Prince Abdullah in Washington, declared that Saudi Arabia would not negotiate with the kidnappers, who had demanded the release of jailed al-Qaida militants by Friday in exchange for Johnson's life.
"The stupid Saudi government took the initiative and announced by the Americanized tongue Adel Al-Jubeir that it will not submit to the conditions of the mujahedeen, claiming that it doesn't negotiate with terrorists," the statement read.
The group said it beheaded Johnson when its deadline expired Friday.
Al-Moqrin's final article, written after Johnson's kidnapping, described the American as "an infidel, a warrior of the military. ... He works for military aviation and he belongs to the American army which kills, torture and harm Muslims everywhere, which supports enemies (of Islam) in Palestine, Philippines, Kashmir (news - web sites)."
Johnson, 49, had worked on Apache helicopters for Lockheed Martin.
He replied to critics urging the release Johnson, saying: "Do those people want to see this infidel carry on the killing of the children and the raping of the women in Baghdad and Kabul in order to bless his killing?"
He said it is no excuse that Johnson was not a member of the U.S. military.
"According to this twisted logic, U.S. President George W. Bush (news - web sites), Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) and others are innocent and peaceful because they are like the hostage, all of them do not wear the military uniform and ... stay away from the battlefield," al-Moqrin wrote.
"We can't preserve the dignity of Muslims but through these means," he wrote.
MAGGIE MICHAEL, Associated Press Writer
CAIRO, Egypt - The al-Qaida cell that kidnapped and killed American Paul M. Johnson Jr. said in an online periodical Sunday that sympathizers in the kingdom's security forces supplied it with police uniforms and vehicles and set up fake checkpoints to facilitate last week's abduction.
The details of the kidnapping appeared in Sawt al-Jihad, or Voice of Holy War, a semimonthly online periodical published by al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula. A separate article, the final one written by cell leader Abdulaziz al-Moqrin, killed in a shootout Friday night, justified Johnson's slaying.
The first article said militants wearing police uniforms and using police cars set up a fake checkpoint on al-Khadma Road, leading the airport, near Imam Mohammed bin Saud University.
When Johnson's car approached the checkpoint June 12, the militants in police uniforms stopped his car — a Camry — detained him, anesthetized him and carried him to another car, the article said.
It said they then blew up Johnson's car.
"This car is the one the Saudi media claimed was laden with explosives and that (the security) seized and defused it," the article said.
Security officials said last week that Johnson's car was found near Imam University. Saudi press reports said the car was booby-trapped and later caught fire.
"A number of the cooperators who are sincere to their religion in the security apparatus donated those clothes and the police cars. We ask God to reward them and that they use their energy to serve Islam and the mujahedeen," the article read.
It said the militants decided to behead Johnson when Adel al-Jubeir, foreign affairs adviser to Crown Prince Abdullah in Washington, declared that Saudi Arabia would not negotiate with the kidnappers, who had demanded the release of jailed al-Qaida militants by Friday in exchange for Johnson's life.
"The stupid Saudi government took the initiative and announced by the Americanized tongue Adel Al-Jubeir that it will not submit to the conditions of the mujahedeen, claiming that it doesn't negotiate with terrorists," the statement read.
The group said it beheaded Johnson when its deadline expired Friday.
Al-Moqrin's final article, written after Johnson's kidnapping, described the American as "an infidel, a warrior of the military. ... He works for military aviation and he belongs to the American army which kills, torture and harm Muslims everywhere, which supports enemies (of Islam) in Palestine, Philippines, Kashmir (news - web sites)."
Johnson, 49, had worked on Apache helicopters for Lockheed Martin.
He replied to critics urging the release Johnson, saying: "Do those people want to see this infidel carry on the killing of the children and the raping of the women in Baghdad and Kabul in order to bless his killing?"
He said it is no excuse that Johnson was not a member of the U.S. military.
"According to this twisted logic, U.S. President George W. Bush (news - web sites), Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) and others are innocent and peaceful because they are like the hostage, all of them do not wear the military uniform and ... stay away from the battlefield," al-Moqrin wrote.
"We can't preserve the dignity of Muslims but through these means," he wrote.
I think we should do as they say....
Let every american know exactly when and where the al-quaida members will be released. Give us all enough notice to take the day off. Then, what if something bad were to happen, like.. oh... I don't know. Some pro-Americans learned from the games Al-guaida plays and, say, kidnaps the terrorists. Then we... i mean, the local pro-American 'terrorist' group can make videos of the deaths of the terrorists. Americans were known for lynching. I'm sure some Americans can stil come up with some tar and feathers, or a long rope and a tall tree...
That way, the terrorists get their demands, they let the prisoners go, and Americans get a piece of true justice.
Let every american know exactly when and where the al-quaida members will be released. Give us all enough notice to take the day off. Then, what if something bad were to happen, like.. oh... I don't know. Some pro-Americans learned from the games Al-guaida plays and, say, kidnaps the terrorists. Then we... i mean, the local pro-American 'terrorist' group can make videos of the deaths of the terrorists. Americans were known for lynching. I'm sure some Americans can stil come up with some tar and feathers, or a long rope and a tall tree...
That way, the terrorists get their demands, they let the prisoners go, and Americans get a piece of true justice.
- Status