Think I found the limit.

[Slamfire]

Powder that old could be deteriorated, which creates higher pressures. After cutting your powder charges, if you ever have future over pressure indications, stop shooting, and don't shoot that ammunition again! Old gunpowder has, and will blow up firearms. I have pasted a number of blowup accounts with old ammunition, which I occasionally do for the adamant skeptics.

 

[entropy]

Been working up some 9mm loads trying to use up some 70's vintage Red Dot. This was 5.1 gr behind 124gr FMJ RN in my Stoeger.
I only loaded a handful, but I think I'll tear those down and back it down to 4.8gr.
View attachment 1054870

5.1gr. is a .45ACP 230FMJ load-no wonder it's a bit stiff for 9mm.

 

[243winxb]

Maximum loads- Reduce for a starting load.

Lyman 45- Handbook- 4.9 grs.- 1107 fps. Speer #8 - 5 grs-1136 fps.

124 & 125 gr jacketed bullets. 9mm Luger. Red Dot powder.

 

[Hugger-4641]

I don't know what your seating depth is.....I loaded at least 2000 9mm with 4 grains of Red Dot under a 124 plated flat point.. I think those were seated to 1.045 OAL - I'd have to check my notes to verify but I do remember velocity was about 1050. 6.1 seems to be too much of a good thing .

Coal was 1.065

 

[Hugger-4641]

Where did you get the Red Dot data for the 9mm? I checked several manuals and the Alliant load data site and they don't provide Red Dot load data in the 9mm.

Lyman 44th and Lyman 50th

 

[243winxb]

Question, only because I have 8lb of Red Dot unopened, does Red Dot spike in pressure that quick, like more than Unique?

The burn rate for Red Dot is a lot faster then Unique.. Red Dot contains more Nitroglycerin, then Unique.

When working up, using. a 2/10 gr increase in powder, the Red Dot will increase pressure/velocity more & faster, then Unique.
Add in a small capacity cartridge, a slight increase in powder, is more noticeable.

 

[Blue68f100]

It was 5.1gr that did this, I don't think it would survive 6.1. This is also vintage Red Dot from early 1970's that belonged to my grandfather. I compared his Lyman 44th (1968 IRCC) , and my Lyman 50th, but I figure the 44th is probably closer to being accurate for this powder.
View attachment 1054918

Things to check with old powder before use. Smell the powder, should have a solvent smell if good, or no odor. If sour it's going bad if not all ready. Pour some out onto some white paper. Look for red dust, clumps as you pour. Metal can, look for rust inside the can. As powders break down they release an acid, which can eat metal cans. I've had several from that era that has gone bad within the last 4-5 yrs. If you catch it early you can use it up instead of disposing of it. My IMR 3130 is still good, W748 and IMR4350 went bad.

 

[wcwhitey]

This is kind of a concern to me. If the OP started with a old powder and started his load at 4.5 grains why did you wind up at 5.1. If 4.5 worked, gun cycled and shot accurately why would you continue up the ladder? Especially not having reliable data. As another poster showed 4.6 being max. I am no stranger to max loads for certain purposes being guided by published data. But for plinking ammo, why bother pushing your luck.

 

[243winxb]

Metal powder cans-

All my powders, in metal cans got put into HDPE marked bottles. Black should be use, if possible. . HDPE is on the bottom of some Hodgdon smokeless bottles i have. Black is to keep the sun off the powder.

Mark/label, the new containers with a permanent marker. Mine are frosted whitish plastic. No sun in basement.

 

[Hugger-4641]

This is kind of a concern to me. If the OP started with a old powder and started his load at 4.5 grains why did you wind up at 5.1. If 4.5 worked, gun cycled and shot accurately why would you continue up the ladder? Especially not having reliable data. As another poster showed 4.6 being max. I am no stranger to max loads for certain purposes being guided by published data. But for plinking ammo, why bother pushing your luck.

I guess the definition of plinking ammo could be subjective, but here are a few reasons:

1. I want to use up this powder before it does go bad, so I want to see how stable it still is and what I can and can't use it for.

2. I want to know what the limit is for each bullet weight. I loaded 5.1gr of this powder behind some 100gr rn with no problems. I have some 115gr and 147gr that I will be working with next, but I have a bigger supply of 124, so playing with those first.

3. I want to end up with velocities pretty close to the equivalent factory ammo so I don't have to adjust sights significantly, especially in my PCC.

 

[wcwhitey]

I guess the definition of plinking ammo could be subjective, but here are a few reasons:

1. I want to use up this powder before it does go bad, so I want to see how stable it still is and what I can and can't use it for.

2. I want to know what the limit is for each bullet weight. I loaded 5.1gr of this powder behind some 100gr rn with no problems. I have some 115gr and 147gr that I will be working with next, but I have a bigger supply of 124, so playing with those first.

3. I want to end up with velocities pretty close to the equivalent factory ammo so I don't have to adjust sights significantly, especially in my PCC.

Don’t get me wrong, I am in no way trying to say you went way overboard, the fact that you worked up until you saw pressure signs is a good thing. My question is more that if let’s say 4.5 grains worked means you are in the zone. Did the gun function? Did you do accuracy tests against factory ammo of the same weight and bullet style, at what point moving up the ladder did you get that match. You stated you have no chronograph so velocities are a matter of a S.W.A.G. I am all for using whatever is on hand, at times like this we are all trying new things. Please be careful and at the point where you find a nice accurate load that functions well in your pistol understand that that is probably a good place to stop. Be well!

 

[wcwhitey]

This is Lyman 50th, no listing for Red Dot with jacketed bullets at all. For cast 120 grain starting load is 3.0, Max 3.9. For the faster powders and jacketed bullets listed you can see that the Max loads do not exceed much more than .5 a grain over the cast bullet of similar weight. Powders like Unique are very similar.

 

[Mark_Mark]

if you are taking the risk and shooting that 6.1 again, Chrono it! we need to know the speed!

 

[Hugger-4641]

if you are taking the risk and shooting that 6.1 again, Chrono it! we need to know the speed!

It was 5.1gr, and yes I will shoot one and chronograph it, maybe this weekend if weather permits . I have a jig for doing this safely if I don't want to fire by hand. I'll post the results in this thread

 

[Hugger-4641]

You stated you have no chronograph so velocities are a matter of a S.W.A.G.

I have a chronograph, I just didn't check these rounds because it was dark and I was purely looking for pressure signs. I will chronograph one and post results with a clear disclaimer not to try to duplicate this load.

 

[Jonny2guns]

The burn rate for Red Dot is a lot faster then Unique.. Red Dot contains more Nitroglycerin, then Unique.

When working up, using. a 2/10 gr increase in powder, the Red Dot will increase pressure/velocity more & faster, then Unique.
Add in a small capacity cartridge, a slight increase in powder, is more noticeable.

Thank you, that's kinda what I thought was going on. Back when Berrys platted was coming out, I couldn't find info on loading them, so I used jacketed charge. The bullets tumbled usually leaving elongated holes in paper targets.

 

[Mark_Mark]

I have a chronograph, I just didn't check these rounds because it was dark and I was purely looking for pressure signs. I will chronograph one and post results with a clear disclaimer not to try to duplicate this load.

let do a group guess…

1375!

 

[Seedy Character]

^^^^^^^^^


1365

 

[Slamfire]

It was 5.1gr, and yes I will shoot one and chronograph it, maybe this weekend if weather permits . I have a jig for doing this safely if I don't want to fire by hand. I'll post the results in this thread

Used to be a bunch of food fights whether velocity equaled pressure, and it is not an exact fit. However, a chronograph is an outstanding tool for evaluating loads. And velocities above book values are a clue that pressures are excessive.

And, don't trust old gunpowder. If you experience funnies in pressure, retort, etc, don't use it.

 

[Mark_Mark]

^^^^^^^^^


1365

I bid $1

where is that from???

 

[Hugger-4641]

I'm gonna stick with my prediction of 1250fps out of the Stoeger, but I think It may go 1500fps out of the PCC if I try that. I'll take a video when I do it and post a link.

 

[Mark_Mark]

I'm gonna stick with my prediction of 1250fps out of the Stoeger, but I think It may go 1500fps out of the PCC if I try that. I'll take a video when I do it and post a link.

no way! I loaded 9major at 1275-ish 124 with way less pressure that your little hand grenades

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Used to be a bunch of food fights whether velocity equaled pressure, and it is not an exact fit. However, a chronograph is an outstanding tool for evaluating loads. And velocities above book values are a clue that pressures are excessive.

And, don't trust old gunpowder. If you experience funnies in pressure, retort, etc, don't use it.

Trust no one.

 

[BJung]

I borrowed some Red Dot to test 9mm loads. Ken Waters' Petloads reported that 9-123gr Ohaus cast with 4.0gr Red Dot with a MV 1051 and OAL 1.10" as his most accurate cast bullet load. Unfortunately Red Dot was not the best performing powder for my 9-122gr Lee TC loads. Bullseye and AA2 performed better so I moved on.

 

[entropy]

Trust no one.

And keep moving.