Think I found the limit.

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I’m not even commenting on the OP’s load out, just waiting for his chrono data!
wcwhitey said:
This is Lyman 50th, no listing for Red Dot with jacketed bullets at all. For cast 120 grain starting load is 3.0, Max 3.9. For the faster powders and jacketed bullets listed you can see that the Max loads do not exceed much more than .5 a grain over the cast bullet of similar weight.
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I’m very familiar with extrapolating load data from similar weight and technology bullets, but when you see a manual like in this case where red dot is listed for the cast, but not the jacketed, it always makes me wonder if they just didn’t test red dot for jacketed, or if there’s some other reason they don’t list it. I’m not trying to play powder police, just seeing if anyone has an explanation.
 
Red Dot Powder-

lordpaxman said:
when you see a manual like in this case where red dot is listed for the cast, but not the jacketed, it always makes me wonder
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Pressure spikes when bullets engauge/hit the rifling. Lead is more forgiving then jacketed. Like said in post #31.

The 1999 Alliant data lists jacketed loads with Red Dot.

I should add- I tried Red Dot in 38 spec, 45 acp & reduced rifle cast loads. Accuracy was never great. When the 8 lbs was used up trap & skeet shooting, switched to 700X, better for handguns. To smokey for shotgun.

Bullseye is still my choice for target loads in 38 spec & 45 acp with cast. Not for 9mm. Slower burn rates of powder are better/safer for 9mm Luger.
 
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243winxb said:
Pressure spikes when bullets engauge/hit the rifling. Lead is more forgiving then jacketed. Like said in post #31.

The 1999 Alliant data lists jacketed loads with Red Dot.
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I would expect pressure spikes when any projectile hits the rifling, the question is by how much? I was looking for any empirical data or manufacturers warnings for specific instances like red dot, otherwise it’s speculation. I actually like Red dot or it’s cousin IMR Red (discontinued), just haven’t tried it in 9mm yet. As far as burn rates go, the competition crowd favors faster, and safer is relative. I would agree you need to match the burn rate for the intended use.
 
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

lordpaxman said:
speculation.
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Yes it was on my part. The 1999 data shows very little difference in Red Dot data using the 125 gr lead and jacketed bullets. RedDot1999.JPG
20220127_203658.jpg
 

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Here's the Lyman 44th data for 9mm and Red Dot (1968). I believe this data is more accurate in this case as the powder is about the same vintage.
My own chronograph tests back in Aug 2021 with 4.8gr of this powder and 124fmj rn averaged right at 1050 from my SCCY Cpx2 with 3.1" barrel.
I'm going to chronograph some those in the Stoeger as well as 4.9gr, 5.0gr, and maybe the 5.1gr load. :cool:
The Stoeger has a 4.17" barrel and 1/10 twist , so I expect it will be right on the money with the Lyman44th data. They used a S&W model 39 with 4" barrel and 1/10 twist.
Hopefully Sat I'll have the answers.:)
20220127_192721.jpg
 
Hugger-4641 said:
Here's the Lyman 44th data for 9mm and Red Dot (1968). I believe this data is more accurate in this case as the powder is about the same vintage.
My own chronograph tests back in Aug 2021 with 4.8gr of this powder and 124fmj rn averaged right at 1050 from my SCCY Cpx2 with 3.1" barrel.
I'm going to chronograph some those in the Stoeger as well as 4.9gr, 5.0gr, and maybe the 5.1gr load. :cool:
The Stoeger has a 4.17" barrel and 1/10 twist , so I expect it will be right on the money with the Lyman44th data. They used a S&W model 39 with 4" barrel and 1/10 twist.
Hopefully Sat I'll have the answers.:)
View attachment 1055292
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I looked again in Lyman 50 and like I originally posted and several others said there is no Red Dot data for jacketed bullets in the 9mm.

I dont have a Lyman 44 but I do have a Lyman 45. The photo you posts doesn't show the OAL used in that recipe. In Lyman 45 it looks like they used an OAL of 1.169" and they tested in a real gun with a 4" barrel. 3.5gr produces 877 fps and the max charge of 4.9gr delivered 1107fps just like the data in Lyman 44. You didn't tell us the barrel length used in Lyman 44 data or the OAL you used.

All of that counts and I see no reason to load above the max charge suggested by the data especially if you are seating the bullet deeper. Small changes in the area the powder occupies can change the pressure considerably is such a small cartridge case. What is the OAL you are using?

Of course you can do as you please but safety should be paramount.
 
ArchAngelCD said:
I looked again in Lyman 50 and like I originally posted and several others said there is no Red Dot data for jacketed bullets in the 9mm.

I dont have a Lyman 44 but I do have a Lyman 45. The photo you posts doesn't show the OAL used in that recipe. In Lyman 45 it looks like they used an OAL of 1.169" and they tested in a real gun with a 4" barrel. 3.5gr produces 877 fps and the max charge of 4.9gr delivered 1107fps just like the data in Lyman 44. You didn't tell us the barrel length used in Lyman 44 data or the OAL you used.

All of that counts and I see no reason to load above the max charge suggested by the data especially if you are seating the bullet deeper. Small changes in the area the powder occupies can change the pressure considerably is such a small cartridge case. What is the OAL you are using?

Of course you can do as you please but safety should be paramount.
Click to expand...
To the best of my knowledge the 44th and 45th dont list oal. I dont know which volume was the start but its after 45.
 
ArchAngelCD said:
You didn't tell us the barrel length used in Lyman 44 data or the OAL you used.
Click to expand...

I gave my OAL earlier in the thread, it was 1.065. I run that coal because of tight throat in my G3c. I'll have to look later, but 44th did give a max OAL, but it wasn't bullet specific, IIRC it was 1.125. I did give barrel length from 44th in the same post as the pic from the 44th, that data is on a prior page.:)

I agree whole heartedly about safety, that's why I approach things the way I do. I have both of my blinkers and all ten of my booger flickers and intend to keep it that way.:cool:
 
Slamfire said:
Used to be a bunch of food fights whether velocity equaled pressure, and it is not an exact fit. However, a chronograph is an outstanding tool for evaluating loads. And velocities above book values are a clue that pressures are excessive.

And, don't trust old gunpowder. If you experience funnies in pressure, retort, etc, don't use it.
Click to expand...

I agree the chrono is a great tool. The problem is that it gives no indication of the peak pressure the load generated. And fast powders can generate pressure quickly.
 
Hugger-4641 said:
I gave my OAL earlier in the thread, it was 1.065. I run that coal because of tight throat in my G3c. I'll have to look later, but 44th did give a max OAL, but it wasn't bullet specific, IIRC it was 1.125. I did give barrel length from 44th in the same post as the pic from the 44th, that data is on a prior page.:)

I agree whole heartedly about safety, that's why I approach things the way I do. I have both of my blinkers and all ten of my booger flickers and intend to keep it that way.:cool:
Click to expand...
The max OAL for the 9mm is 1.169" IIRC, not 1.125".
 
ArchAngelCD said:
The max OAL for the 9mm is 1.169" IIRC, not 1.125".
Click to expand...

I'll take your word until I get a chance to look. I'm definitely under both the max 9mm oal and the recommended oal for this bullet.

I've actually got a seat test already loaded up that hopefully I can get tested this weekend. This is for my own research and conclusions, but I'll share the results for discussion.
For this test I have some 115gr Hornady FMJ loaded behind 6.4gr of HS-6, which is a load I've already proven and tested in all of my 9mm guns at a coal of 1.060, Coals I'll be testing are 1.12, 1.09, 1.06, 1.05, and 1.045.
I chose to do this load first so I have a control data set to compare with and see any possible instability in my Red Dot powder. Then I plan to duplicate the test using 4.8gr of my Red Dot powder. Of course I will be inspecting the brass from each coal before doing the next one, but I'm really not concerned with the HS-6 or the Red Dot until I get down to 1.05 and 1.45. Depending on what I see, I may fire these from the jig and not by hand.
 
@Hugger-4641, you posted you load at a col of 1.065”. @243winxb posted the ‘99 Alliant data with a COL of 1.150”, and a max at 4.6gr for FMJ. That’s quite a bit shorter COL, and depending on the bullet’s OAL, a greater seating depth. I have an older version of GRT, and looked in it’s database for Red dot but sadly it isn’t there. Perhaps someone with QL might run a simulation just to see what software predicts. Good luck with your testing!
 
lordpaxman said:
@Hugger-4641, you posted you load at a col of 1.065”. @243winxb posted the ‘99 Alliant data with a COL of 1.150”, and a max at 4.6gr for FMJ. That’s quite a bit shorter COL, and depending on the bullet’s OAL, a greater seating depth. I have an older version of GRT, and looked in it’s database for Red dot but sadly it isn’t there. Perhaps someone with QL might run a simulation just to see what software predicts. Good luck with your testing!
Click to expand...
That does bring up a thought. Only reason I'm going that short on the coal is that G3c of mine with a tight throat. 1.12 or so works fine in all my other 9mn guns. It crossed my mind to see if a cone shaped rock on a dremel tool might polish the leads out enough to seat better at longer coals. ??? I'll have to do a little research and consulting before I try that.
 
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Hugger-4641 said:
That does bring up a thought. Only reason I'm going that short on the coal is that G3c of mine with a tight throat. 1.12 or so works fine in all my other 9mn guns. It crossed my mind to see if a cone shaped rock on a dremel tool might polish the leads out enough to seat better at longer coals. ??? I'll have to do a little research and consulting before I try that.
Click to expand...
We are not telling you not to load that short. We are saying don't go to the max or over the max charge where the recipe uses a longer OAL. Like I said above, with the very small 9mm case slight reductions in case space could effect pressure greatly.
 
Mark_Mark, I should have taken you up on that bet for 10mm brass.:cool::cool:
I apologize for taking so long to get back to this, but work and weather have not cooperated until now. I finally got home from work with just enough daylight and time to do some testing before anyone else in the family got home.
Below are the results.
After a little tinkering, I was able to use my redneck test rig to make sure the 5.1gr loads would work safely. It actually works well. After that I set up the chrono and took a quick sample.
I think 243winxb was right, the primer flow I saw is more due to the fire pin hole shape of this Stoeger. Either I never noticed before or it only happens with certain primers in this gun. Never saw this in any of my other 9mm guns.
At any rate, I saw no difference in pressure signs between the 4.8gr load and 5.1
I actually think I could go higher than 5.1gr, but I'm not. There's no need, I'm getting the velocity I really want at 4.8 and might drop to 4.5 for plinking.
I started with a factory Rem 115gr rn and one of my proven HS-6 loads for reference. Please excuse the scribble, my hand writing is a doctor's anyway, but it was hastily written on an envelope and I'll record in my journal later.:cool:
20220210_174949.jpg

20220210_171747.jpg
20220210_171857.jpg
 
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Hugger-4641 said:
Mark_Mark, I should have taken you up on that bet for 10mm brass.:cool::cool:
I apologize for taking so long to get back to this, but work and weather have not cooperated until now. I finally got home from work with just enough daylight and time to do some testing before anyone else in the family got home.
Below are the results.
After a little tinkering, I was able to use my redneck test rig to make sure the 5.1gr loads would work safely. It actually works well. After that I set up the chrono and took a quick sample.
I think 243winxb was right, the primer flow I saw is more due to the fire pin hole shape of this Stoeger. Either I never noticed before or it only happens with certain primers in this gun. Never saw this in any of my other 9mm guns.
At any rate, I saw no difference in pressure signs between the 4.8gr load and 5.1
I actually think I could go higher than 5.1gr, but I'm not. There's no need, I'm getting the velocity I really want at 4.8 and might drop to 4.5 for plinking.
I started with a factory Rem 115gr rn and one of my proven HS-6 loads for reference. Please excuse the scribble, my hand writing is a doctor's anyway, but it was hastily written on an envelope and I'll record in my journal later.:cool:
View attachment 1058734

View attachment 1058735
View attachment 1058736
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NICE RIG!!! so did you win that bet??
 
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