Thinking about a single stack 9mm or .40S&W

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chaim

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I have a decent gun collection now with most of my gun needs covered. I have full-sized autos (both double and single stack), service sized revolvers, a large bore revolver, black powder revolvers, 2 J-frame sized snubs (one steel and one aluminum), a .22 pistol, a nice CCW auto in a service caliber (my Taurus PT140 M. Pro) and a Bersa in .380. However, I'd very much like a smallish single stack on a 9mm/.40S&W sized frame.

First, I am a fan of CCW type guns and this is an important type of CCW gun I lack (when in CCW states it would do IWB tucked better than most while still having some punch if needed). Second, and more importantly (on the timing anyway), I am dating a wonderful young woman who likes guns. She owns a Ruger .22 pistol (I don't know if she has a MKII or 22/45). I'd very much like to take her shooting (actually she brought up wanting to go shooting with me) and I'd like to have her shoot a gun in a stronger caliber. However, her hands are very small and other than the Bersa and the snubs (which aren't the most comfortable to shoot) I doubt if any of my guns would fit her hands. I should also be getting a decent tax return soon. So, I'm thinking it may finally be about time to add a single stack 9mm/.40S&W to my gun safe (how's that for justification:D ).

I've had a chance to handle most of my choices at one time or another. I've had a chance to shoot some of them. I know they are guns I'd like. However, most I have not been able to check out back to back. Also, I am a man with very thick fingers and beefy hands so I can't really judge how'd they'd be for small hands. So, I'd mostly like everyone's feedback more as a size comparison for what I'm looking for.

I want the gun to be concealable for when in a CCW state. I want it to be relatively comfortable to shoot at the range so this time I'm not looking for the smallest possible. I want it to be a thin gun. Basically, I want a concealable gun for myself that will also be good to introduce small handed shooters to service caliber weapons (I'm sure this woman I'm dating won't be the only person I take to the range with small hands- if nothing else, I plan to have kids one day).

Here is my list:

-S&W 4040. Interesting lightweight single stack .40S&W. From all I hear it is actually fairly comfortable to shoot.

-SIG 239 (not sure if I'd get one in 9mm or .40S&W). I shot one once in .40S&W and I found the recoil to be negligable, and it was accurate.

-Kahr P9. Very thin (thinner than the K-series). I don't know how comfortable it is to shoot though- my best friend's PM9 is pretty similar in felt recoil to a steel J-frame.

-Kahr K9. Very thin, easy to shoot, comfortable to shoot, accurate, reliable, concealable, etc.

-Kahr K40. A little more substantial a caliber than the K9, but I'm not sure about the recoil (remember, this is also going to be an introduction gun for people with small hands).

-S&W 3913. Very nice guns. Comfortable in the hand. I may go with the LS version, but even the regular version has grips that should fit most small hands.

-S&W 908. Basically a less expensive version of the 3913.

-S&W 410. Basically a .40S&W and slightly larger version of the 908. Don't know if the recoil characteristics and size will be what I'm looking for though.

-Taurus PT908. Only available used, but good prices, very concealable, small single stack 9mms. This one I haven't actually had the chance to check out in person though (I'd probably order one online if I bought one). I have checked out the double stack PT911 and liked it a lot though.

I am also considering 3 double stacks but I'm worried they may be bigger than I should go for this use:

-Taurus PT911/PT940. Always liked this gun but I haven't yet bought one. They are pretty compact for double stack guns.

-CZ 75 Compact. Nice gun, I love my CZ 75B, but I'm not sure the width of the grip is any less than the full-sized gun so it may not work for what I want.

-Glock 19. I'd have to find one used since I won't buy a Glock new (one possible problem). It is a double stack, but polymer guns are usually a bit more compact than their metal counterparts. I don't know if this will be enough to counteract the bulk of the double stack mags though.



As of right now I think my top choices are the SIG 239 (I'd prefer it in .40 but I may go 9mm for the lesser recoil), Kahr K9, S&W 3913, and S&W 908 but that may well change. I'd probably prefer the .40s but recoil is a strong consideration for what I want this gun for (so if you suggest one of the .40s please have something to say about perceived recoil- preferably be able to compare it to another common handgun). Also, I'd love a Commander or Officer sized 1911 for this but: 1) the single stack 9/.40 would be a bit smaller, 2) I already have a gun essentially Commander size in my Ruger KP345, 3) the single stack 9 would have less recoil, and 4) the 1911 would probably be significantly more money than most of my other options.
 
I'm a big fan of S&W third-gen autoloaders, but the only compact single stack I've owned was the 457. Recoil was not an issue, so I can only assume a similar pistol in 9mm or .40 would handle as well.

I've also owned both the Sig P239 9mm and .40. The .40 had too much recoil IMO but the 9mm was a sweet pistol. I eventually traded it for a P229 in 9mm as I found it just as concealable and I liked the extra five rounds in the mag.
 
The 3913 is a nice little pistol, and I've got M28 size hands. I really enjoy mine, and it hides well, although it is the only S&W autoloader I own where I've replaced the factory grip with a Hogue... factory was just a bit too skinny for me, and kind of hollow feeling under my palms, torqued a little under recoil. Odd, because normally I'm a Houge hater, but I've learned to live with it.
 
I saw a Smith and Wesson 945-40 that had a short barrel that was a nice looking pistol.
 
I have the 908S (stainless). (9mm Only 8 Shot) Wouldn't trade it for the world. Shoot it more accurately than many other hand guns I have..and probably, because I have very small hands.
 
The Kahr P9 is a great little gun. Pretty substantial muzzle flip, which takes a little adjusting to, but a very good balance of power and size. It's slim, light and very accurate for that type of gun. I've shot one several times, but the fellow who carries it does so all the time, tucked in a waistband holster. You'd never know if was there if he didn't tell you. Noticeably slimmer than a Glock.

Kahr makes a lower-cost version now, too, called the CW9 which is closer to $500 than the $700 you'd pay for a P9.
 
For me the SIG P239 in .40 is way out in front and that would be my suggestion but my dark horse suggestion is the Smith 3913.

I am not a Smith Auto fan but I'll be damned if the 3913 isn't one of the finest single stacks I have ever seen.

So if you go .40 go for the SIG. If you go 9mm go for the 3913.

Just my opinion and we all know what those are like. :D
 
I have a 3913 Lady Smith that I had Teddy at Actions By T work on. It is a wonderful single stack 9mm for CCW. They can be had for a decent price and Teddy can really get it smoothed out. The barrel crown is as sharp as a knife and he cut and polished it as well. Its a great gun. Another option, I just purchased the CZ PCR. I love it! The grip is one of the most comfortable I have ever held. I have not had time to shoot it so I cannot comment on that aspect. But, everything I've read has been positive. Give it a look.
Randy
 
Here's my old fart opinion on two of your selections.

1. Sig P239: I have owned many, many 9mm pistols over my 45 years of firearms ownership. The 9mm is my favorite round (I prefer CorBon's) so in pistols I keep to 9's..

The single absolute best 9mm pistol I have ever owned is the Sig P239. No question, not even close. I purchased a Sig P239 new as soon as they were released for sale and it has always been the most accurate, always reliable pistol I've owned.

The only negative of the Sig P239 for me was I just didn't like the smooth wraparound grips. Apparently lots of other P239 owners felt the same as Hogue made some excellent replacements, priced reasonably. I think the Hogue's are excellent grips and I recommend them highly over the grips that originally came on the P239.

Earlier this month I replaced the Hogue grips with a set of Crimson Trace Lasergrips.. These CT grips are (to my eye and feel) almost identical to the Hogues, but with the embedded laser on the r. grip. I am a big fan of Crimson Trace products, and these P239 Lasergrips are fantastic. If you have any interest in lasers please check out the Lasergrips for the P239.

For me the Sig P239 is very concealable and remains at the top of my personal list for cc and personal defense. With the CT addition (for me) I feel I have a fine personal defense pistol that is always ready when I am...

2. S&W 3913: I purchased one of these new also. I like it a lot, but for me it's simply not as good as the Sig. It has been 100% reliable and accurate.. Not as accurate as the Sig, but close. The 3913 has ambidextrous safety's and some people like that. Even tho I'm a lefty, I just like the de-cocker on the Sig. Once you get use to the de-cocker the safety's just seem redundant. The 3913 is in fact my Son's (25yrs old) favorite and I have put it away for him. I still have the box, etc. 3 factory mags, and a new DeSantis holster for it. It is an excellent pistol, only coming in second in my heart to the Sig. Even that perspective is personal and you, or others might see it differently. It's a great pistol, I can recommend it to anyone. If I couldn't have the Sig P239, it would be my first choice.

I haven't most of the pistols you are looking at, but at one time or another I have had, or have: Glock 26, Taurus P92, Tokarev, Browning HP, Star BM, KelTec P11, Bersa Thunder 9 (Ultra Compact).

I hear great things about the CZ's, and I might buy one of those one day just to see what the fuss is all about. The Walther P5 and H&K P7M8 has always been of interest to me, but are out of my price range.

Still. I don't think I'll ever find any pistol that will replace the Sig P239 for me. It always feeds whatever ammo, crap or quality, thru it. It is amazingly accurate. It is very simple with the decocker, and in a crisis I know all I have to do is point to center of mass and pull the trigger.. The pistol WILL do it's job if I'll just do mine. The CT Lasergrips are just icing on the cake.

100_4765.jpg

If you want a discussion on revolvers I have opinions on those too...

Hope this helps a bit.

Best Wishes,

JP :D
 
i think you would be very pleased with the khar p9 or the p40, i own the k40, and i love it but i have shot the p40, i personally like the steel frame kahrs better it just feels like there is a little more to it it weighs a few ounces more but you can carry it around all day and forget you even have it.. I took two newbies to the range the other day with the kahr, and they enjoyed themselves and didn't have any complaints, one male and one female. i am taking my wife next week end and we are taking the ruger p95 and the kahr again. i would suggest the k40 and if the recoil will be that big of a deal than the k9 instead.
 
I've had a thing for the Kahrs lately & after I finish my ar project, I plan on adding one to the collection.
 
My first choice in a single stack 9mm is always a Kahr K-9. My second is a S&W 3913. They weigh about the same but the Kahr is smaller in all dimensions and is all steel. The S&W holds one extra round and has a true DA trigger so there is the second strike abilitly if you need it.

3rd choice would be a SIG 239. It is a well made gun but it sits high in the hand and doesn't feel as good to me as the other two. It is also more expensive than the S&W 3913 and almost as much as the Kahr. If you are going to spend almost as much as a Kahr, you might as well get a Kahr and have the very best. The SIG plays second fiddle to the Kahr.

I am not a fan of the .40S&W but S&W is comming out with one that looks good. It is basically a 3913 LadySmith in all black SS with the tapered frame. I saw it on Guns&Ammo TV and it looked good.
 
I doubt if any pistols fit all the criteria you listed, so some compromise is to be expected.

I vote for the Sig 239 in 9mm. It is probably my favorite all around pistol. I don't think the stock grips please too many people though.

I've never cared for S&W semi-autos (except for their 1911s).

Unfortunately, Kahrs are not "Massachusetts compliant" and are rarely seen here. So, I have no experience with them.
 
OK, I'm leaning towards the 9mm. I love both 9mm and .40S&W, and I do think .40 is a tad better for defensive work (if for no other reason than you don't have to be as careful in selecting your loading- i.e. you can buy whatever premium/defensive ammo is on sale), however for one of the two main purposes of this gun (introducing shooters with small hands to service caliber handguns) I think the lighter recoil of 9mm would be better. Meanwhile, 9mm is no slouch for defense when using the better defensive loadings. Still, since I'm largely looking at used guns I'll go with the best overall buy in either caliber.

While the SIG seems to be (pretty hands down) the favorite here, I am leaning against it unless I find a great deal. I was pricing them online and it is by far the most expensive of the options I'm considering. In fact, on some of the auctions it seems I may be able to get a new Kahr for about what most of the used 239s are going for. Used v. used I think I'll probably be around $100 more for the SIG and I know how good Kahrs are so I have trouble believing the SIG will be that big an improvement. So, right now my leanings are (not in any order because the order of preference changes so often): 1) the Kahr K9, 2) the S&W 3913 (or blued 3914), or 3) the less expensive S&W 908. Can anyone give a size comparison on those three (plus the SIG 239 in case I find a good enough deal)?

Someone mentioned the MK9 and while I think it is a great gun, it is not on my list right now. I think it is a little too small to be good as a gun to introduce new shooters at the range. If I was looking primarily for a CCW gun I'd probably go with an MK9 or more likely the PM9 (the PM9 would be a decent pocket gun). However, an occasional (when out of state) CCW role is a secondary role for this pistol, though a role I'd like it to be able to serve.

One other consideration...We probably will be going to the range before I buy whatever I buy (though I did bid on a few 3913s, 239s, K9s and K40s on Gunbroker but I have either not been the high bid or I've been below the reserve- I'm not ready to pull the pin at full price yet I guess). It is always possible that even with her small hands the woman I'm dating will be able to handle my full-sized pistols (I'll try first with the single stack 1911 and Ruger KP345) or one of my double stacks (I'd try the subcompact Taurus PT140 M. Pro first). If that is the case I won't need to be in such a hurry to get one of these guns (sniff, I'd lose a "perfect" excuse). In that case, I probably would still strongly consider these guns for future trips to the range with small handed new shooters (though .40S&W would move higher on my wish list as it wouldn't be as needed for this purpose), but I'd also strongly consider the MK9 or PM9 as my next gun in that case.
 
When I was in your boat and looking for my first compact single stack CCW, I went to a gunshop that had a nice selection and tried them all out. They had several that I was interested in and I got to handle them all side by side. If you haven't done this yet, I highly recomend it. It is better if you can actually fire them before you buy but I haven't found a place that will let me do that so I mostly buy and try based on how the gun feels in my hand.

The guns that they had were a Star Firestar M-43, S&W 3913, SIG 239, Kahr K-9 and Kahr E-9. After checking all of them out, I really liked the way the Kahr felt in my hands much better than any of the others. I had never heard of a Kahr before so I didn't know what to expect. The K-9 was more expensive than the SIG 239 so I was about to buy the SIG even though I prefered the Kahr. If I could have afforded the Kahr, I would have got that but since the SIG was cheaper, I was going to settle. That is when the sales guy told me about the E-9. It is almost the same gun as the Kahr K-9 but it has plastic sights and hard plastic grips rather than the soft rubber of the K-9. He took both guns apart in front of me and let me inspect them to look for any defects or major quality differences. Other then the Kahr E-9 being a two-tone and having a matte finish, they were basically the same.

I ended up buying the E-9 for about $375 NIB OTD. I have loved Kahrs ever since and I won't be without one if I can help it. I have two K-9s right now, one as a carry gun and one as a range/pratice gun. I shoot the carry gun once in a while but I mostly practice with the range gun.

I didn't even like the S&W 3913 very much considering the price was about the same as the SIG and the K-9 and it was larger and didn't feel quite as natural in the hand. I held off on the 3913 until about a year ago when I found a really nice one at a gundealer who is a friend of a friend of mine and he gave me a sweat deal. I paid $275 OTD for a excellent well kept non-Police trade-in with holster. It was a great deal. I got to shoot it and I liked it even more. The S&W is a shooter, that is where everything comes together. In the display case and even in your hand it may not shine but take it to the range and it gets better and better.
 
Well, you need to anticipate spending some time and money at the range ...

There are so many subjective considerations involved in selecting a handgun.

Some thoughts of my own, though ...

First of all, S&W has recently discontinued production of the 4040PD. There are still some available, however. Excellent little .40 S&W pistol. Like a 3913 chambered in .40 S&W. Scandium frame and the slide was machined to accept the decock-only, spring-loaded decocker assembly (like the slides of the TSW line). I enjoyed a fair amount of range time with one for a while, and found it to be an excellent compact pistol for its purpose.

Unfortunately, the cost of producing the Scandium frame didn't make for an inexpensive pistol, and apparently with the marketplace saturated with .40 S&W pistols (including S&W's own 4013TSW and SW990L Compact), it just wasn't selling well enough to remain in production.

My favorite compact 9mm pistol of all is the venerable 3913. Mine is a late production example which has been modified to accept the spring-loaded, decock-only option, and has night sights. Outstanding example of a single column, metal-framed, compact 9mm defensive pistol. Pretty much state-of-the art.

Amazingly accurate for a service-type, compact defensive pistol. Every time I take it to the range for qualification or training I remember why it was my most commonly carried off-duty weapon for several years. (It was only bumped from that position because I ended up buying several other compact & subcompact pistols which received a lot of training and carry use.) While my CS9 comes close to matching the inherent accuracy of my 3913, it has a bit more snap and muzzle whip than the 3913 ... and while my G26 and SW99c are both very accurate, neither really has the balance, overall handling and 'feel' of my 3913.

I happen to prefer the traditional double action of the S&W pistols, especially the fast and short SA trigger reset.

I'd consider a SIGARMS P-239 as a second choice to the 3913, although I can certainly understand a previous poster's preference for the diminutive SIG 9mm as a primary selection. Excellent little pistol. The grip profile could be a bit thinner, but it's still okay for most hands. The shape of the SIG trigger, even when the 'short trigger' is installed in some of their models, isn't as inherently comfortable to me as either the older narrow 3913 flash chromed trigger, or the newer narrow MIM triggers. Also, the DA trigger stroke in the SIGARMS design is often a bit on the long and spongy side, with some stacking felt in many models I've used (although not "bad"), and transition to SA is longer, with the SA trigger sometimes stacking before breaking. A perfectly decent 'service-type' trigger, but I just prefer the TDA in the S&W design. (FWIW, I think both the SIGARMS and S&W are preferable, from my personal perspective, to the TDA offered in the USP series.)

I've done some shooting with different P-239 pistols, chambered in a couple of calibers. Nice pistols.

Something to carefully consider is the placement of the controls, though, since this may be an issue with some users/owners. The SIGARMS slide stop lever and decocker are located farther rearward, and differently, than in the S&W 3913/TSW/908 series.

I recently had a right-handed fellow that had an apparent grip problem with his P-239, in that he was preventing the slide stop lever from rising and locking the slide back when the magazine ran dry. His grip had developed around a double column magazine SIGARMS pistol, and his grip when using the smaller framed model positioned his thumb a bit differently than when using the larger model. This is a 'better issue', I suppose, than finding out that your grip results in your thumb being positioned so that you unintentionally exert upward pressure against the slide stop lever ... and prematurely lock the slide open with ammunition remaining in the magazine. This seems to more often occur with some of the polymer-framed pistols which have the slides top levers positioned close to the thumbs of right-handed shooters, but the slide stop lever of the little SIGARMS is a bit further rearward than the lever on the S&W. Best to rent both designs and shoot a couple hundred rounds through each to see if something about the specific ergonomics might be more, or less, preferable to you. Not really a problem for left-handed folks, though ... ;)

I've handled and fired different Kahr pistols. Seen more polymer-framed models exhibit functioning issues on the firing line than the metal-framed models ... and seen more functioning issues exhibited by 9mm models than .40 S&W models. Small sample, of course ... but I'm not inclined to buy one anyway. I don't particularly care for the DAO trigger. I prefer the Glock trigger to the Kahrs. Dunno why ... but there it is. My opinion, and it may only matter to me.:) Some owners report some excellent results with them, however, and it might be prudent to add a couple of them to your list of pistols-to-rent to see how you like them, ergonomically, as well as how the rental examples do when it comes to functioning ...

If I were going to be buying a new single-column magazine 9mm to replace my 3913 ... I'd spend the extra money to buy the 3913TSW. The larger and stronger box-type rails of the TSW are a potential advantage when it comes to inherent potential accuracy, if nothing else. The ambidextrous manual safety/decocker assembly, metal guide rod, delayed unlocking (potentially offering a bit less felt recoil to some folks), metal magazine catch and visual loaded chamber inspection hole are nice benefits ... although you also get the accessory rail, which isn't preferred by some folks (although it can be removed at the factory and the holes plugged with rounded plugs). I don't use the accessory rails on my compact pistols, but then neither do I care about their presence, either.

Personally, while I own several pistols chambered in both 9mm and .40 S&W, I happen to prefer the 9mm when it comes to the overall advantage I experience when it comes to recoil management and controllability. I carried issued 9mm full-size and compact pistols for more than 15 years, as well as both a full-size and compact .40 S&W issued pistols for the last several years. I think the .40 S&W is a very viable defensive caliber ... I just think the 9mm is "easier" (for me, anyway) to shoot accurately and controllably than the .40 S&W ...

Another subjective issue, of course, and one for you to research and determine for yourself what the right answer may be for yourself. Don't hesitate to spend some money on a reasonable amount of quality ammunition when you're renting and evaluating potential purchases. ;)

Enjoy, and let us all know what you discover during the process.

It's important that you select the right model and caliber for you ...

I know folks who are satisfied owners of the S&W, SIGARMS and Kahr compact pistols, when it comes right down to it.

I'd also offer the suggestion for thought that the excellent Walther P99c and SW99c/990Lc are worth potential consideration, even though they're double column magazine models ... if you can find a TDA/AS model of the P99c/SW99c. The excellent ergonomics and slim grip profiles of the Walther produced polymer frames make for nice grip frames for many folks. The QA/990L actions are also nicely done, but I simply prefer the TDA/AS versions, which are more difficult to find at the moment. Walther reportedly stopped importing the AS models last year, focusing on the QA models, although I've heard they may be reintroducing the AS models back into the US in the near future. S&W is only producing the SW99 series for L/E orders at this time, and producing the 990L for commercial sales (think QA-type action without the slide-mounted, minimal decocker offered in the Walther QA models).

Lots of quality compact pistols out there ...

I also really like my CS9, BTW, although it has a bit more muzzle snap and rise than the 3913 ... to me. Another great subcompact 9mm single column pistol, with 7+1 capacity and a TDA trigger.

Luck to you ... and it's not like you can't (or won't) change your mind later and end up owning one of each. ;)
 
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For a single stack 9MM take a hard look at the STI Trojan. I have one and it extremely accurate and dependable as long as you stick to a 10# recoil spring. Virtually no recoil. Can't say enough about the gun. That said it is hampered by the nine round mags which is a handicap for playing the games IMHO.

Take Care
 
I've used the 239 a decent amount, and I own the K9. My wife has used them both, with most of the time with the Kahr.

She is quite small, with small hands, and she really likes the Kahr's size, weight, etc. In fact she now refers to it as being "hers", although it didn't start out that way. The only complaint is the recoil spring strength: it's almost too strong for her to work without a concerted effort. It might be possible to swap it for a weaker one without any problem, but I've never tried.

The Sig is great, wonderful quality, but the balance just wasn't as nice as the Kahr.
 
Glock 19 or S&W 3913. Just curious...why won't you buy a Glock new?
Click to expand...

Glock is a privately owned company. That means that some portion of the profits from each and every Glock pistol ends up in Gaston Glock's pocket. Gaston Glock is a major financial supporter, and personal friend, of Jorg Haider (look him up). Thus, some portion of the purchase price of a Glock will indirectly end up in the coffers of Haider's political party. Being that Haider is basically the biggest Nazi apologist in Austria, and I am Jewish, I think it should be pretty understandable that I refuse to purchase a new Glock.
 
I have a Kahr P9 Covert that I really like - slim, accurate, lightweight, and reliable.
 
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