Thinking of building a rifle kit... And introduction.

[gilgsn]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post here.. I live in Sarasota Florida, and I have always liked BP shooting. As a teenager, I owned, fired and lost a few BP revolvers (Uberti).. Mostly, I didn't clean them, didn't know any better, didn't care. I even put together a cheap Kentucky rifle kit, which only needed assembly and finishing, though I never finished the wood and went shooting.. My powder measure was a teaspoon

Almost 30 years later, I have come to appreciate fine things and learned to take care of them ;-)

Which brings me to really wanting to build a muzzleloader; this one in particular: http://www.longrifles-pr.com/schweitzer.shtml in .45 cal. Since I am a newbie, I have a few questions, and hope you guys can help me a little..

First, about barrel length and size. The Great Mountain barrels offered on the site are 36'' or 42'' long. 13/16 or 7/8 size (only 42'' in 7/8).
Isn't all the powder burned after 36'' of barrel travel?
Is there an advantage to the longer 42'' barrel?
I am thinking 36'' would be long enough. Should I get a 13/16, or shorten a 7/8? Would a 7/8 be stronger, or strength is more of a breech plug issue?
(I would like to try some long distance shooting..)

Second, about Pecatonica River Long Rifle Supply's services:
http://www.longrifles-pr.com/services.shtml
What is a staple underlug?
What does "Install under rib with screws and solder thimbles to rib" mean?

Third, about finishing:
Where can I have a barrel blued, and how much does it cost, average?
Are BP barrels ever chrome lined?
What about wood finishing, what is most desirable?
What grades of sandpaper are needed? 1000? Finer?

Note that I want my rifle to be more practical than just a beautiful wall hanger.. It's pretty humid here in Florida, so that is a factor.

I know it's a lot of questions, but knowing the answers would greatly help me decide what to do. So, any input is greatly appreciated!

Thank you, ya'll have a great week-end

 

[blackpowder bob]

This looks like a good place to start

http://www.holidaylake4h.com/flintlockrifle.php

 

[mykeal]

Isn't all the powder burned after 36'' of barrel travel?

Yes, hopefully, but I'm not sure the reason for the question. It is possible to stuff enough powder in so that even a 42" barrel won't burn it all. By the way, it's Green Mountain, not Great Mountain.

Is there an advantage to the longer 42'' barrel?

Sight radius is longer, so the gun can theoretically be shot more accurately. This assumes, of course, that the shooter is capable of taking advantage of the longer sight radius.

Should I get a 13/16, or shorten a 7/8? Would a 7/8 be stronger, or strength is more of a breech plug issue?

The 13/16 barrel will be lighter, easier to carry and aim, but will have more felt recoil. The 7/8 will be inherently stronger, although it's debatable whether or not that's any kind of advantage. You shouldn't even approach any loads that will require that strength.

What is a staple underlug?

A staple underlug is a piece of metal in the shape of a staple which is attached to the underside of the barrel. When the barrel is assembled into the stock a key (wedge) is inserted through a hole in the forestock, through the opening in the lug and out the other side of the forestock. This wedge holds the barrel tight onto the stock.

What does "Install under rib with screws and solder thimbles to rib" mean?

An under rib is a long, fairly thin piece of metal with a square cross section that is screwed to the bottom of the barrel in front of the forestock. Small pieces of tubing called thimbles are attached to it to hold the ramrod. These parts are only used on a half stock rifle; the full stock design you are considering would not use them.

Where can I have a barrel blued, and how much does it cost, average?

Almost any gunsmith can put you in touch with someone who does bluing. Most kit builders do their own, however, using supplies from someone like Brownell's or Track of the Wolf. The cost of a full barrel would be between $80 and $150.

Are BP barrels ever chrome lined?

Very rarely, in specialty situations only. BP barrels don't shoot jacketed rounds.

What about wood finishing, what is most desirable?

Stained, then oiled (tung oil, linseed oil, etc.). Colors are personal choice.

What grades of sandpaper are needed? 1000? Finer?

I finish mine with 220, then whisker and use a wood filler stain.

 

[robert garner]

Whisker

good advice ! find several books and read them,not only to see what is possible but to decide how and why You want to do it a certain way,develop a plan start to finish. (know what your last move will be before making your first move)
By the way to whisker the wood, you sand it smooth then wet it to raise the grain, then sand again.
As you're in Fla and wax and oil finishes are almost derigour on our muzzle loaders remember POLYEURATHANE finishes are your friend (done in a satin instead of high gloss) will protect your investment in time and money!
Have fun!
robert

 

[fspitzdorf]

These guns from Pecatonica (and elsewhere) are not "kits" but are more a collection of components that require a lot of finishing and fitting. You need metal working as well as wood working skills and tools.

The first thing I would suggest is finding a couple of references to read and or watch. Chuck Dixon's Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle, Peter Alexander's The Gunsmith of Grenville County, Jim Chamber's DVD on building his packages... so on and so forth.

I have no idea of your skill but you are asking some very basic questions so I must assume you have not undertaken a project of this type before. If this is your first of this magnitude I would suggest a style that is easier to complete. Something of a Lancaster school style (Isaac Haines, etc).

While not cheap the Jim Chamber's kits come the closest to a "kit" with much of the inletting partially done and needing some fine relieving to make components fit. Of course components are still rough cast and need finishing. A Chambers stock probably has twice the inletting complete of a Peacatonica or Track of the Wolf stock.

To answer your question the under rib would be for a half stock gun such as a hawken. Soldering underlugs would be for round barrels such as a fowler. Staples are a type of underlug that requires you to drill into the barrel and then using a tool designed for the purpose you stake the underlug "staple" in place. It is called a staple because that is what it looks like. You put the prongs in the drilled holes and stake it in place. The more common method is to use dovetailed underlugs. Where you either hand cut or machine a female dovetail into the barrel. The underlug has the male dovetail and you tap it into place.

One other thing to consider is that most rifles of this time period used a swamped barrel. On top of that you will have to fit the breech plug in a Green Mountain barrel. Rice and Colerain barrels come with breech plugs pre-fit. You may only need to make a couple of file passes on the threaded end to finish it up perfectly rather than try to file the barrel end square as well as the breech plug to make them come together perfectly and at the same time index the plug to the proper flat when it is snug.

This is a very good online tutorial by Mike Brooks to get you started.

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/tutorials/brooks/Brooks1.html

 

[Chawbaccer]

In agreement with fspitzdorf
You may wish to get a more completed kit for your first effort.
When using a pile of components to build a gun, you can often end up with a rifle that is worth less than the price of the parts.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

ALL of your excellent questions will be answered when you read this:

The Art of Building The Pennsylvania Longrifle http://dixonmuzzleloading.com/index.php?section=muzzleloadingshop&link=literature

Get it, and go through it twice, there is a bunch of stuff, it's well illustrated, and I think you will like it very much.

LD

 

[DrLaw]

Just a thought

Putting together a rifle is sometimes a daunting task. Ever thought of starting with a pistol kit instead?

You learn everything you need to do on the larger scale, plus, it takes less time to make, and that gives you more time to experience b-p and see if you like it.

At least, that was the way I started many years ago on a low-priced Dixie Gun Works kit. (which I still have today)

The Doc is out now.

 

[Cosmoline]

These guns from Pecatonica (and elsewhere) are not "kits" but are more a collection of components that require a lot of finishing and fitting. You need metal working as well as wood working skills and tools.

Very good point. But with the right instruction books plus basic tools and good quality chisels you can do it. Just take your time and ask lots of questions.

The builder's forum over at traditional ML forums is a great source I used a lot when starting out.

Quality wise PR is mid-level.

 

[fspitzdorf]

The gun builders section of the american longrifles forum is also an endless resource.

The most important operation to know with woodworking tools is how to sharpen them... Sharper than the razor you shave with.

If you can beg, borrow or steal Rifles of Colonial America Vols I & II they will be invaluable for understanding architecture. Just about the best thing next to having the real thing sitting next to you...

 

[gilgsn]

Great advise, thank you all! The rifle I am looking at has the inletting done on the stock. I can also get all the extra options done as well.. No doubt it is more than I suspect, work/skills wise.. I like building stuff and am good with tools, as well as metal working. Woodworking, not so much, but not rocket science, I assume. One expense would be getting the right chisels for the job. I wouldn't get a swamped barrel, too much work to inlet.. Historical accuracy is not my priority. The Mike Brooks tutorial is excellent. I certainly know I do not want to do as much work for a first project!
I looked at the Jim Chambers kits, and the closest model I found is the Smooth Rifle, which I would get with a rifled barrel. Too bad it isn't available in .45. Also, it looks swamped, and that means more work. The kit doesn't look more advanced than the Pecatonica.
I really like the look of the Schweitzer, the way the stock just drops down.. The Cabelas Blue Ridge looks like that too, and I like it. That's another option, though I wouldn't have the pleasure of building it, and it would surely be in another "category."
I will keep looking around and learn as much as I can.

Thanks again!

 

[mykeal]

Another resource worth the time: Track of the Wolf's printed catalog. It has very good descriptions of several styles of long gun 'kits' available, along with some suggestions as to the experience and skills needed for each. They recommend, for instance, starting with a Northwest Trade Gun as the best first kit, employing just the basic items necessary, but with options to add if the builder feels up to it.

 

[gilgsn]

I do like Track of the Wolf's Bedford County...

 

[Cosmoline]

TOTW lets you mix and match really easily which is a neat advantage, but they have a general barrel shortage for some reason.

 

[fspitzdorf]

Pecatonica, TOTW, Chambers, so on and so forth, inletting does not mean you just stick parts in a hole... Most of the wood is removed but you must still enlarge all inlets and draft all components to make the components fit. You will also have to deepen lock mortice inlet to seat the lock.

Do not be put off by a swamped barrel thinking it is more work. The one part that comes inlet very close is the barrel channel. You will have to do some minor scraping to make even contact and you still have to square the breech of the channel as well as create or enlarge the mortice for the breech plug as you would with a straight channel. The tang still has to be bent and inlet as you get more or less a small rectangular opening (ie the start of the tang mortice).

 

[rodinal220]

I would recommend getting some training from a qualified instructor.I went to a Jim Chambers kit building class at Conner Prairie,well worth the time and money.The TOTW and Chambers "kits" are not a slap together weekend projects.I have 100 hours into my gun,thats no fancy carving,no inlays or engraving.

The only power tools used were a drill for drilling holes,and a milling machine for the rear sight dovetail(you can do by hand ).The rest of the build was totally by hand.If you want a nice gun,take your time.
These "kits" as previously stated are collection of parts that need to be carefully fitted.Each gun style has its own unique challenges.


http://www.connerprairie.org/

http://www.flintlocks.com/

 

[gilgsn]

I started on my building adventure, here's the blog post:

http://keskydee.com/wordpress/archives/976

 

[Cosmoline]

Nice choice! I love CM to work with and to admire.

For a moment I thought the rifle in the video was your own first build, and I was upset.
LOL

 

[gilgsn]

LOL, yes, that is a beautiful gun. I didn't pay much attention to it the first time I saw it a couple years ago, but getting into building one myself, I looked at it very carefully this time and was amazed. Just the fact that the father built it for his son is awesome!
Gil.