This is why MIM parts are BAD (breakage/wear photos)

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hexidismal

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Here's a little backstory first. My S&W 686-5 6" has had a little problem for some time now. It's a tad hard to explain without actually demonstrating it. Basically when the trigger was not released crisply after a pull, it reset only to the point where it would, on the next attempted pull, only turn the cylinder about a half turn and not cycle the whole action. Once done, the timing was off and would continue to do this until fixed by either manually positioning the cylinder into place or manually cocking the hammer. Hmm ! :scrutiny: Well, the gun did function mostly alright, as long as the trigger was allowed clearance to "snap" forward after a complete pull. I took it to the smith I had originally bought it from and he took a quick look at the internals and said.. "Well, we can probably clear that up if you have me (PAY ME to) do a trigger job". :mad: I don't like this smith.. Anyway, I kind of bought it his story that it might be something about the overall balance of springs, or an issue with their length. My other initial suspicions were maybe a worn hand or something. I used the gun in this condition for some time, because it wasn't really a big problem, and my normal trigger release speed was generally sufficient to not get it caught up.

I've been doing a lot of my own trigger jobs lately (I'm currently learning gunsmithing) So, I decided to take it apart and see what could be seen. I found the problem.. and it was certainly not what I expected. And a trigger job would NOT have fixed the problem.

The 686-5 for those who don't know is the last pre-lock revision, and uses an MIM hammer and trigger.

Here's what I found when I inspected the trigger itself. First a picture of the "Healthy side"
m5-MIM686break-goodside.gif

Now lets see the other side.
m3-MIM686break.gif

As you can see the MIM trigger had at some point had some of the metal cracked away. The broken rough edge and subsequent wear had created a surface that was not easily passing into the engagement face of the cylinder stop. Thats why a quick forceful trigger rebound was able to push it past the bevel onto the hook, but a slow release was allowing it to get caught up.

Here's a "super macro" photo of the damage.
sm1-MIM686break.gif

Final thoughts.. I need a new trigger, and MIM parts = BAD ! :cuss:
 
There can be fabrication blemishes in MIM parts just like there can be errors in milled parts. Quality MIM isn't bad. Blemished or cheap MIM are just as bad as cheap milled or stamped.
 
here we go again

My intention wasn't to start a debate of any kind. I just wanted to show my experience with the MIM part (and get some complaining out of my system..hehe)

You're right, the whole gun sucks.
I'll give you $25 for it.

That might be a TAD extreme.. hehe. I'm rather fond of this gun. The gun that trigger came out of is shown here next to a 1911. I mean really now.. you could at least offer me $30 ! :D
1911and686-1b2.gif
 
Umm... I really don't see anything in your post to indicate that MIM is bad. Sounds like a part failed. Parts have been failing in all sorts of devices for about as long as we've had devices with parts.
 
That might be a TAD extreme.. hehe. I'm rather fond of this gun. The gun that trigger came out of is shown here next to a 1911. I mean really now.. you could at least offer me $30 !

I had a good Christmas... $100 for the pair, final offer. PM me. :D

Seriously, though, it sounds like the part in question wasn't right from the factory, which tells me that the MIM part was flat out defective. This isn't an example of a typical quality MIM part failing horribly before a typical quality milled tool steel part failing.

Really, while I might rate milled tool steel as better than MIM, I don't run screaming if somebody uses MIM. S&W and Springfield Armory (the guns in your photo), while they use MIM, they also have lifetime warranties, so if it breaks or is defective out of the box, it is their problem.
 
I can't imagine how that trigger ended up in the gun and not the scrap bin. Do the S&W assemblers even look at what they are doing anymore?
 
It is annoying when that happens, isn't it. I'm not a metallurgist but I understand from people who should know that MIM is good for some parts but chancey for others, and that internal problems can bite on those parts.

On Kimber semi-autos I found that some MIM parts break but others don't seem to do so. Thumb safeties and slide stops are among those that I've seen broken most. I don't remember which others have broken. It doesn't cost much on a 1911 to swap out all of those parts preemptively, so for the sake of safety and peace of mind that's what I do with them.

Most of my revolvers predate the use of MIM and I don't think I've seen sucn a failure until I saw your report. Thank you for posting it. My only contact with S&W gave me the impression that it's oriented towards customer service, so I'd guess that S&W would fix your gun at no cost. You'd probably get another MIM trigger from them, though. Is there an alternative?
 
Over the years I've seen a lot of conventional (real steel) S&W triggers, but none had that particular failure.

Oh well, as long as you don't have to depend on the gun..... :uhoh: :eek:
 
My intention wasn't to start a debate of any kind. I just wanted to show my experience with the MIM part (and get some complaining out of my system..hehe)

1 incident does not equal "data". I have a MIM trigger in my S&W. Yours failed, mine didn't. Does that mean there is a 50 percent failure rate of MIM parts? Of course not.

I saw a forged M14 receiver crack once. Forged receivers = BAD?

Mmmm.. Nah prolly not.

What seems to be BAD here is S&W's quality control for letting that get out in the first place, THAT's what's bad.
 
Contact S&W and email them the photo. They might just send you a replacement part that you install yourself. Alternatively, they may ask you to return the gun and they'll install it for you.
 
Can you get a forged steel triger to replace it, or does the redesign for MIM preclude that?

If you can only get another MIM part, I will reluctantly offer you 200 whole bucks to show my sorrow for you as a brother shooter, and to get that shiny pimp-tastic piece a new home, after all we have to stick together, solidarity in arms (and parts, heh-heh)
 
Shoot, I will give you 100 dollars for each, pay for shipping, and give you a Taurus 94 .22 Revolver for your trouble
Dang. I was going to bid, but I can't top that. :D

Looks like just a badly made part, not necessarily a MIM problem, but what do I know.
 
Can you get a forged steel triger to replace it, or does the redesign for MIM preclude that?
The new 686 SSR uses a milled hammer & trigger, so real steel replacement parts should be available (at owner expense of course).
 
Need a lot better micrographs of the affected part, but I'd opine what you're seeing is some spurious material in a critical area of the part. That 'saucer shape' is indicative of a progressive stress failure. Takes a real metallurgist to decide, but I'd add to that guess the possibility of a low mould pre-heat as well.

Nothing inherently 'wrong' or 'inferior' with the MIM process IMO. Lots of good parts used daily made that way. Like any mfg process, QA/QC/Insp are the ultimate arbitrators of how 'good' parts made this - or any other way - are. And the security/certainity of that process is a function of money. And the money available is a function of what the end user is willing to pay for the product........

So all of you out there have a very real input into these sorts of problems. Tell the company(s) you'll pay a few bucks more to insure a higher level of quality - and then don't 'shop price'..... >MW
 
Like any mfg process, QA/QC/Insp are the ultimate arbitrators of how 'good' parts made this - or any other way - are. And the security/certainity of that process is a function of money. And the money available is a function of what the end user is willing to pay for the product........

There you have it. Today's market is a tough one for every manufacturer. People are concerned with price above all else, and so manufacturers are trying to put out products that have all the features people want and do so at a price people are willing to pay. This is probably more evident in the automotive industry than anywhere else. People want everything, and they want it cheap. Really cuts the builders off at the knees, and quality often suffers in the race to put out products that perform to expectation, but are still inexpensive.

Forunately, with luxury items like firearms, we can still opt for higher end stuff that is built better. Wish the same could be said for autombiles (before anyone jumps in here on this point, the Euro and Asian stuff breaks just as frequently as domestics, and cost more to fix)
 
I believe today companies often try to "inspect in" quality rather than "build" it in.

Technology does not replace a skilled machinist or a smart set up man.
 
Contact S&W and email them the photo. They might just send you a replacement part that you install yourself. Alternatively, they may ask you to return the gun and they'll install it for you.

I was just going to buy another trigger, but you're right I should give S&W the chance first .. it'd sure be nice to ge it for free. Only if they'll send me the part though because I'd rather not go through the trouble/shipping/waiting time of sending it in. Buying just a new trigger wouldn't be so bad though. It would be about $40 and 60 days wait on special order.
 
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