Thompson cut in half!!

[Sky]

A friend of mine imported a WWll Tomy gun which was given to the Russians back in the 40s. Before he could import the weapon the receiver had to be cut in two places. There are pictures of before and after the saw job.

He is legal and registered for machine guns. Now he has to take the gun and have it wielded and once again it will work for it's intended purpose. Creating jobs?

What a waste of time and effort.

He also has some of the Korean M1s he received before the shipments stopped. He was not to impressed with their appearances but they do shoot well.

To me it just seems like well intentioned people who write laws and try to control things and people (with little knowledge of a subject) would be better off worrying about themselves instead of trying to make inane laws for everyone else.

The Tommy will be a range gun he will rent. His personal Tommies are a little nicer but still a boat anchor. Personal opinion.

 

[Sam1911]

He is legal and registered for machine guns. Now he has to take the gun and have it wielded and once again it will work for it's intended purpose. Creating jobs?

You mean to say he's an FFL and Special Occupational Tax Class 02 manufacturer?

That's the only way to legally do what you're describing. He'll be making a "Post '86 Dealer Sample" machine gun.

 

[NOLAEMT]

He got atf permission to return that Thompson to working order?

That would be construction of a machine gun, and illegal after 1986.

Usually receivers are cut in half to make them no longer firearms and therefore importable as scrap.

I think your friend is doing something very illegal unless he is a licensed class 2 manufacturer.

 

[Tommygunn]

He is going to get into deep kimshe if he tries to assemble it.
If he doesn't get into legal kimshe, he'll get into the physical kind when he fires it and it spontaneously disassembles.
I have a dummy Thompson as a wallhanger. Back in WW2 we gave the Russians Stuart Light Tanks as part of the war effort. Each tank was equipped with a Thompson. The Russians didn't use them so they packed them up in cosmoline and stored them. Several years ago they were returned to America .... where all the receivers were promply cut up. Someone got the wise idea of taking the parts, C&C'ing up dummy aluminum Thompson recievers, attaching the parts, and selling them.
Having a few extra $$ at the time, I bought one. I also have the nose end of a Thompson that was cut of; the first four or so inches of the receiver. But I do not have a whole working receiver (ATF please take note )

It is a crime that the govt. has passed laws requiring these old guns be destroyed.
But there are still working Thompsons on the National Firearms Registry for those with the $$$$ and the willingness to acquire them LEGALLY.

 

[mbogo]

If that gun was imported as a DEWAT, I don't think he'd get BATFE approval to re-activate it.

mbogo

 

[Sky]

Sam you guys may be right I honestly do not know; I think it has been mentioned he is a class 2, three or 4 FFL I suppose I can find out. When I first met him it was said by some of the people around he was the only legal guy around who could own and fix fully auto-matic weapons. There are feds at the range all the time and I do not believe he would do anything even close to a gray area...I will check...What got me if he is legal why all the destruction and B.S. if all he has to do is some smithing? I doubt it would be a range gun if he were a subversive because some of the renters will be feds and legal beagles.......

 

[Sam1911]

O.k. So let's say he's one version or another of an FFL and an SOT Class 02. So he can make "Post Sample" machine guns for his business use and for sale to other Class 02s and Class 03 dealers. That makes the machine gun issue legal.

If that gun was imported as a DEWAT, I don't think he'd get BATFE approval to re-activate it.

Technically he'd be making a new firearm because the old receiver was destroyed. He's making a new receiver and installing the parts kit (barrel, stocks, bolt, etc.) from the old gun. This isn't substantively different from all of us who've taken AK parts kits and rebuilt them on purchased or homemade semi-auto AK receivers.

Sounds perfectly legal to me. Most of the time when professionals operating out in the open do something like this, they've done their homework to keep themselves out of jail. This isn't bubba and eddie trying to get their SKS to go full auto behind the barn.

 

[Sky]

Friend is a 1, 3 6, 7, twice FFL if that means or answers the question. Sounds impressive to me but I don't about such things.

 

[Sam1911]

Type 1 FFL is a Title 1 dealer or gunsmith

Type 2 FFL is a Title 1 dealer doing business as a pawnbroker

Type 3 FFL is a licensed collector of Curio & Relic (C&R) firearms

Type 6 FFL is a licensed maker of ammunition and reloading components (not Armor Piercing ammunition)

Type 7 FFL is a Title 1 manufacturer of firearms, ammunition and ammunition components (not NFA, Destructive Devices or Armor Piercing ammunition)

Type 8 FFL is an importer of Title 1 firearms and ammunition

Type 9 FFL is a dealer in Title 1 firearms including NFA destructive devices, but no other NFA

Type 10 FFL is a manufacturer of Title 1 firearms, ammunition and ammunition components, including NFA Destructive Devices but no other NFA, and not including Armor Piercing ammunition

Type 11 FFL is an importer of Title 1 firearms, ammunition and NFA Destructive Devices, but no other NFA

In addition he may be one of the following:
Class 3 SOT -- dealer of NFA firearms
Class 2 SOT -- manufacturer of NFA firearms
Class 1 SOT -- importer of NFA firearms

 

[Sky]

Whew!! Yes sir he is not a bubba and is a stickler for playing the rules game. He is one of the more interesting guys I have met in a long time and for the most part he has been a wealth of information without acting like a know it all..

 

[evan price]

The ATF made it illegal to import nonsporting firearms a long while ago. Also, once a machine gun, always a machine gun so machine guns are by definition not sporting arms... Machine guns for non-leo or .gov are not legal unless they were on the NFA registry prior to the Hughes Amendment's effective date of June 1986. EXCEPT as a post sample, and that's only legal with a department letter or .gov purchase inquiry.

There's a specific demil procedure for these guns that specifies exactly where they have to cut and what metal has to be destroyed. Generally saw-cut receivers are NOT legal to import because ATF specifies torch cutting with at least 1/4" of metal blown out to prevent rewelding. The torch cut area is shown in a diagram in the big book of laws to ensure a specific structural element, machined area, or critical dimension is destroyed. To make a legal saw cut import a large section of the receiver must not be imported.

There was a big issue with FAL rifles (IMBELs) about 6 years ago which were saw cut but nothing was missing except the blade kerf, and that did not meet BATFE demil specs. They got held up in customs for a year or so while the rear half of the receivers were cut off and destroyed.

I recall ATF did a test where they took a saw-cut receiver and put it together with zip ties, baling wire and chewing gum and got it to fire a shot. That was enough for them to crack down on saw cut imports.

I don't know anything about your receiver, however a reweld without specific circumstances being fulfilled would possibly be a problem with the BATFE.

You're lucky the barrel was plain, a compensated barrel (threaded) would have been destroyed prior to import. BATFE decided threaded barrels are "nonsporting" and banned them by .gov fiat a couple years ago.

Good luck with your Thompson.

 

[Sky]

The barrel is threaded I held it. I do not know what type of importer lic he has but with the type of speciality guns he has coupled with some of his clientele I would bet a Dr. Pepper he has the paper work to go with it. I guess I can find out but if there is a hint of something not proper I really do not want to know; the purpose of this thread was about the destruction of a piece of history. I know he is going to be renting the gun so it will be out for all to see and if there is a problem well, someone should have known better.

 

[Sam1911]

I don't know anything about your receiver, however a reweld without specific circumstances being fulfilled would possibly be a problem with the BATFE.

But it IS possible.

You can take a cut MG-42 receiver and fabricate patch parts to replace the missing sections of the receiver, weld the old front and rear to the new middle bits and make a new legal Title I belt-fed firearm.

It takes a bunch of skill and knowledge, especially in constructing a semi-auto fire control group that meets the BATFE's requirements, but this is perfectly legal. Here's a whole forum devoted to it: http://www.mg42.us/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9818&start=0

The exact circumstances of the barrel intrigue me as I'd have expected it to have to be cut as well to meet the recent import restrictions, but it does sound like your pal really does know his stuff. Post pics when you get to shoot it!

 

[Sky]

Thanks again Sam.

I should have taken pics the other day showing the cuts but did not have a camera and to be honest a Tommy does not turn me on. Carried one for a short time and I think I gave it away or swapped it for a tape deck?? Very heavy and during auto fire you have to sit on the barrel to keep it from climbing if I remember right? Main thing was the weight.

I will take pics when he gets it back and finished. He was supposed to drop it off today for wielding but he never got around to it.

 

[Oldfalguy]

This thread is a bit of a <deleted -- Sam> for lack of any identifiable specifics-
Is he dropping it off for welding as in the receiver needing to be welded together? IF not why is he not doing the welding if he is a
1, 3 6, 7, twice FFL - whatever you were trying to say with all that business

 

[Bubbles]

Is he dropping it off for welding as in the receiver needing to be welded together? IF not why is he not doing the welding if he is a
1, 3 6, 7, twice FFL

It's quite common for manufacturers to contract work out to other manufacturers.

 

[Sky]

Or drop of something to someone who does a better job than yourself. This will be interesting will do a post when it is finished and he is renting it out.

 

[evan price]

But it IS possible.

You can take a cut MG-42 receiver and fabricate patch parts to replace the missing sections of the receiver, weld the old front and rear to the new middle bits and make a new legal Title I belt-fed firearm.

Sure, Sam, it is possible, that's why there were so many conditionals in my post you quoted. However without knowing all of the specific details of this specific receiver or what the builder is doing I'm not going to jump in and say it will always be legal all the time- especially on the Internet...

 

[Sky]

Yep got me scarrrrrrred

 

[dogtown tom]

Sky Friend is a 1, 3 6, 7, twice FFL if that means or answers the question...

Huh?

Have you seen his licenses?
If your friend does indeed possess all four of those he's wasting $$$$.

03FFL aside, there is no need for an 01FFL or 06FFL if he holds an 07FFL. ATF even tells you that. An 07FFL can deal in firearms like an 01, manufacture ammunition like an 06 and manufacture firearms with his 07.

What is a "twice FFL"?

Waaaaaaay to much weird info.

 

[Trebor]

No reason for anyone here to worry about it. Not enough info to point to any possible specific person or potential crime.

The gun may or not exist. The friend may or may not exist. The proper paperwork may or may not exist. No reason to worry about it as nothing is pointing to a specific person and no one is admitting to any crimes.

At this point it's just an interesting theoritical discussion.

EDIT: wanted to add I'm not trying to defame the original poster. Just pointing out there's not enough info here for anyone to really get worked up about.

 

[Sam1911]

Let's put this one to bed until Sky gets to play with the finished product.

The licenses and tax status issues are confusing to the non-initiated; can't really blame Sky for not getting it all just right in the retelling. If this guy's running a gun shop and range, he's operating at a high enough profile that there's a pretty darned good chance that he's got his stuff squared away. (If not, ... well ... that's certainly HIS problem, isn't it?)

It isn't Sky's shop, Sky's gun, or Sky's project. He's just relating something cool he saw.

Let's not waste more effort on dissecting the matter and making Sky go bug the guy for proof of this, that, and the other. We've got government agents we pay to check into that stuff for us, right?

Sky, when your pal gets it done, PM me and I'll reopen the thread. Heck, maybe it will be a great opportunity for a Texas meet-n-greet -- you all can go rent some time on it and post pics.