Those slippery, long-range 6.5mm bullets...

[Gewehr98]

UPS brought me a small package today. Inside were a couple boxes of something that caught my attention a while ago. Lost River Ballistic sells a variety of bullets, with unbelievably high ballistic coefficients. For example, their 120gr bronze-nose boattail sports a .687 BC, while their 132gr HPBT bullet carries a .702 BC!

From the appearances, the Lost River Ballistic bullets look handmade, and lathe-turned, from the marks on the jackets and bullet bases. They're not cheap, either. But with numbers like .687 and .702, I may have to forgive the extra cost.

This bodes well for the .260 Remington, 6.5x55 Swede, 6.5-284, 6.5-06, and other long-legged .26 caliber rifles. Even my mothballed 6.5-300 Weatherby project may get a kick start.

Let's take a look at a typical Gewehr98 digicam snapshot of various 6.5mm bullets, known for their accuracy and long-range potential:



The bullet on the far left is the Sierra 120gr HPBTM MatchKing, with a .421 BC. I did the majority of my load development in the 6.5-06 with this bullet, and it's been a real sweetheart, albeit not as slippery as Sierra's 142gr MatchKing.

Second from the left was my old reliable Nosler 120gr Ballistic Tip, which made me a true believer in long-range 6.5mm rifles, sporting a .458 BC. Sub 1/4 MOA groups with this bullet were somewhat routine.

Now, in the last couple years, the bullet in the middle, in front of the reference quarter, has garnered a lot of attention, even if just mine. It's the Lapua 123gr Scenar, with a .547 BC. I have pretty much completely converted to this bullet for use in my 1000-yard 6.5-06 rifle.

Here's where things get kicked up a notch or two. Second from the right is the new Lost River Ballistic J36 120gr Hunting Bullet, which has a bronze tip fitted into a hollow pointed boat tail jacket. It's still the same 120 grains as the bullets to the left, but notice how much longer it is. It requires a 1-9" twist to stabilize. The BC is a very respectable .687.

Included for comparison at the far right is the Lost River Ballistic J40 132gr Match Bullet, essentially a hollow-point boattail. It's longer than the J36 to the left, and the BC shows it - a whopping .702! It requires a 1-8" twist.

It's getting late, so I'll leave this posting with just the pics. For the long-range folks, you can sort of guess why the latter two bullets are intriguing to me. Stay tuned, more work is coming on my part, to include some exterior ballistics number crunching. This could prove interesting!

 

[dakotasin]

yeah, but...

i was really fascinated by the lr bullets, too. unfortunately, i could not get them to shoot in either of the 7mm's i tried 'em in. haven't heard of anybody getting accuracy w/ them, so i am very curious to see if you can get some accuracy from them.

 

[ftierson]

They certainly do look nice...

Keep us informed on how they perform...

 

[Zak Smith]

Aren't those J36 and J40 bullets almost $2 each?

I'm a big fan of high-BC bullets, but, I mean, come on, I buy 750gr AMAX's for 50BMG at only $1.40 each (BC 1.05 FWIW).

The Berger 140gr VLD has a pretty high BC (0.627) and is only about 26 cents per each.

 _BC_ _MV_         0     200     400     600     800    1000    1200 | YARDS
0.627 3000 >   -1.90   -0.00  -17.25  -58.42 -129.73 -239.41 -398.50 | > 260REM 26" N550 HOT
                        0.00    4.12    9.30   15.49   22.86   31.71 MOA

0.702 3000 >   -1.90   -0.00  -16.80  -56.37 -123.88 -225.90 -370.97 | > 132gr LRB
                        0.00    4.01    8.97   14.79   21.57   29.52 MOA

 

[TheDutchman]

This is not one of those 6.5 Grendel pitchs again is it.

 

[Steve Smith]

No, it's not another Grendel pitch. That pitcher has been told to pitch in the FS forum. This is a regular poster (G98) talking about cool bullets. I don't even think these bullets will work in a Grendel gun (I could be wrong)

I like that one on the far right!

 

[TheDutchman]

coolie heard the 6.5x55 Swede is a good round
btw what is the FS forum

 

[Gewehr98]

Didn't mean to stir up such angst...

But I'll address the topics, one at a time.

Dakotasin, I agree. A bullet with low drag doesn't mean squat if it isn't accurate. High BC and accuracy can often be mutually exclusive terms, and you can't judge a bullet's accuracy by it's appearance, either. I looked at the plastic nose tip and jacket transition on the Nosler Ballistic Tip. It wasn't smooth, or even pretty. But the darned things gave me excellent accuracy. I understand the Hornady A-Max series are capable of tight groups, too. As I look at these LRB creations, it appears to me that the 132gr match bullets are hand-turned on a lathe. That may be good or bad, but the only way I can find out for sure is send them down range, one at a time, through my Krieger barrel.

Zak, they're expensive, I never said they weren't. The 132gr Match bullets are going to a friend in Montana who runs a Howa 6.5x55. He wants a bullet that will give serious accuracy, and hunts coyotes way out there past 400 yards. The match bullet appears homogenous, and won't ruin the game pelts. A box of 20 each J40 Match bullets runs $18.15, so you're pushing 91 cents per bullet. That's spendy, but if it garners him a $50.00 pelt with only one or two small holes, it's worth it to him.

Now, my 120gr bimetal J36 bullets are $38.00 for a box of 20. That's $1.90 per bullet! Is that expensive? Yes. Too expensive for me? No. My personal goal with my 6.5-06 is to create the tightest group I can at 1000+yards. So far, keeping them inside 10" at 1000 yards is no problem, and I've been blessed with several sub-8" groups of late. Not bad for a walking, non-BR rig. Just like your long-range toys, I've got some capital tied up in Krieger barrels, NightForce scopes, Redding dies, Lapua brass, ballistics software, and so forth. The extra advantage of the high-BC LRB bullets is well within my budget and goals, for what I want to do with them.

Looking at your preliminary data above, I have to commend you. If you're running a 140gr Berger VLD bullet at 3000fps from a .260 Remington, you're my hero. Most of the 6.5-284 and 6.5-06 clan work hard to keep their 140gr bullets at that speed. We're either wasting case capacity, or you're running some impressive pressures.

Dutchman, no, this is not a plug for the 6.5 Grendel. Those get tiresome after a while. I am, however, a big fan of the .264" bore, and these late-generation bullet designs are making it possible for a light-bullet, light-recoiling rifle to duplicate or exceed something that was previously the domain of the heavy .30 and .338 caliber rifles. That means a lot to me when it comes to firing a string of 80 or more rounds from the prone during the course of a match. Recoil is not your friend. The low-drag bullets pictured above do a lot to alleviate that concern. Can you tell my degree is in physics?

The low-drag bullets, however, do give folks who work with the .260 Remington, 6.5x55 Swede, 6.5-284, and 6.5-06 something to work with. That's one reason I chose to compare them here on THR.

Steve is right, I doubt seriously that the bullets shown on the right side of my picture would fit inside the 6.5 Grendel. If they did, they'd intrude seriously into the boiler room part of the case, limiting powder capacity.

 

[Zak Smith]

The 3000fps number was suggested to me by another shooter who's been shooting 260 in his AW for some time. If it's not possible, 2900fps certainly is. Powder is N550.

re: cost. I hear you. I try to justify huge capital investment by how many rounds I'll get out of it, and the $$$ bullets don't help that rationale. I need to be able to afford enough rounds for practice, and one homogenous load is the way to go for practice and competition in the precision field matches.

best regards
Zak

 

[Wildalaska]

g98, JUST CURIOUS, how much better are these hand made bullets gonna be compared to 140 MKs or Scenars...if I am getting sub 1/2 inch groups out of my M41B with MKs (havent even tried Scenars yet), is the extra cost worth it....??? Granted I am only running about 2600 fps out of my loads....

Hmmm....now maybe in a??? BLASER 6.5X55???????????????????

Wild6.5Alaska

 

[Gewehr98]

Wild, there are two exclusive concepts we're dealing with here.

1. Accuracy
2. High ballistic coefficient

You can have an accurate bullet that's not very aerodynamic. My .45-70 Beartooth RNFP 405gr bullets are an example of that. Same goes for the old reliable 148gr HBWC .38 Special target load. We all know they're about as aerodynamic as a brick, but it's a very straight-flying brick.

An aerodynamic (high BC) bullet should, by all rights, fly more accurately, and be less susceptible to wind drift. But that's not always the case.

I do expect these J36 and J40 bullets to be accurate, if just for the sake of what I paid for the damned things. But my interest in their design is based on their retained velocity, due to the low drag numbers. The aerodynamics of these particular bullets are better than other bullets in the 6.5mm category, so their drop in velocity happens at a slower rate. This shows up in charts as a flatter trajectory out to the target range.

What it means for guys like me is that the bullet stays supersonic longer, and I need less scope elevation adjustment at 1000+ yards for zeroing purposes. I don't push them too terribly fast, only about 3200fps, but if my hunch is right, these particular bullets will let me make accurate hits out to 1200 yards or more, and worry less about crosswinds. Assuming, of course, that these pretty and aerodynamic bullets also maintain some sort of accuracy.

For your Swedish M41 Sniper, assuming they stay accurate (and I have no doubt they will) these bullets would extend your point-blank and effective range by X number of yards. I've got to do some number crunching using a 6.5x55 Swede model before I have reportable numbers. Remember, the Swedish Mauser started out with a 158-160gr Round-nose bullet, so there's always room for improvement.

Now that somebody's built a better ballistic mouse trap, we can all learn how to use it. That's what gets me all excited, tight groups even further downrange than before!

 

[Bigfoot]

G98 give this guy a shout, he's making some 165 gr. ULD bullets with a expected BC of over .800 for a couple of 1000 yd shooters that I talk to. He's also builds some 142 gr. ULDs with similar BCs as those Lost River bullets, fairly inexpensive too. I might just have to build a bench gun myself.

Richard Graves [email protected]

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

[ecstatic shudder]

Oooooooooh........I'm going to have to get some of these now. Looks like the 6.5-06 project may get off the back burner finally. Thanks for sharing, Gewehr.

[/ecstatic shudder]

Now, where are my 6.5x55 dies?

Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[dakotasin]

g98- during your testing, i would also like to make a request, in addition to your accuracy findings... can you measure the actual bc, and report on its accuracy in relation to the advertised bc's?? when i ran this comparison, my relatively low velocity 7 rem mags couldn't match their advertised bc's...

of course, velocity being related to bc, it could just be that my velocity wasn't enough to realize their claims... (measured velocity at the muzzle and velocity at 100 yards...)

anyway, please report back... i am getting ready to build another 1000 yard gun, and am still deciding on the bullets to build around...

 

[Gewehr98]

Bigfoot, thanks for the referral!

Wildcat Bullets told me they've got a 142gr rebated boattail that I'm going to try. He also hinted that they're working on a 169gr bullet that generates a .924 BC. That bullet is 1.58" long, and will require a 1-7" twist, but I'm already invested in my current Krieger 1-9" barrel, so it will have to wait. It may be just the thing for my dormant 6.5-300 Weatherby barrel-burner project.

In the meantime, I'll play with these Lost River creations. I may chuck one or two up in a friend's CNC hobby lathe, I've got an idea for a wasp-waisted bullet with two separate bore-riding surfaces. If folks remember the area-rule problems that beset the F-102 Delta Dagger interceptor, and what they did to the fuselage to create the Coke-bottle shaped F-106 Delta Dart, you'll have an idea of what I'm experimenting with.

Dakotasin, I'd love to generate some home-grown BC numbers, because I thought Lost River's calculations were somewhat optimistic myself. If you're pushing 7mm Magnums and don't reach their numbers, then I'm certainly in deep doo-doo with my relatively mild 6.5-06 at 3200fps. Unfortunately, I have to score a second chronograph before I can generate those figures. Maybe Mrs. G-98 will put an Oehler w/remote display under the tree this coming Christmas.

I did take off work today to get some trigger time in. No 6.5-06, but a Remington 700PSS in .308, and a brand new Kalashnikov that had been sighted in by monkeys before it reached me. Two benches over, a gentleman had a "new" rifle - a Cooper in 6.5-284 that was drop-dead gorgeous, even with the humongous NightForce 8-40x56 on top. He bought it from the widow of it's previous owner, and was working up loads using the 142gr Sierra MatchKing and H4831, with Lapua brass. His chronograph was showing
2550-2600fps, so we knew he was fairly early in his load development stages. I told him about Midway stocking the 139gr Lapua Scenars, if he wanted to try a cleaner bullet.

Speaking of Lapua Scenars, I've been loading that 123gr Silver Scenar as illustrated in the middle of my picture above. Look where else that particular bullet has been showing up:

 

[NMshooter]

I have always wondered if a football shaped projectile would be the best shape...

Guess you would have to use a sabot to hold it straight in the barrel.

 

[Bigfoot]

Aha! See that? I knew it all along, this is just a sneaky way to get another 6.5 Grendel pic in here.

So the BCs on those 169 gr. Wildcats Bullets might get over .900, nice. I think Richard is still working on them so let's see what he comes up with. I'm thinking that a 6.5 WSM should be able to launch them at over 2900.

Area rule bullets? Why not? It could lessen the barrel drag and allow higher pressures/velocities too. Hope it doesn't move the ogive foreward too much.

The closest thing to a football bullet that I know of is the GS Customs with long rounded boatails.

 

[Bigfoot]

Gewehr98, I remembered this thread when LHB1 mentioned the now defunct Herters Inc. today.

Here's his quote:

"ps: As I recall, they used a gimmick on their bullets: the Wasp Waist. The bullet's diameter was reduced in the middle section so that only the front and rear section of bullets supposedly touched the barrel. This was supposed to reduce friction and thus increase velocity. I don't know whether it reduced pressure or friction but it certainly caused seating problems. You HAD to seat the bullet so the full diameter section was at the case mouth to maintain proper alignment and crimping."

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=139249

Anybody who can design slippery high BC bullets for us is OK by me, did you get to try any of those Wildcat bullets yet?

And I was just pulling your leg about the Grendel thing.

Darrel

 

[Gewehr98]

Still working on the design, truthfully.

And the 40-X/700 that will shoot it needs a seriously deep chamber throat, because I'll seat the bullets on the aft bore-rider section. Not a big deal for a single-shot bolt action rifles, but it makes for a very specialized application.

 

[Gordon]

Although the .258 Super Condor is only a 25 and not a 6.5mm it is in the same league. Back in 1958 when it was born into it's 33pound ugly body by Doctor Ramon SomaviaMD of Hollister Ca., inside the 20x Unertl scope caps it shows the ballistic path from 600-1000yards with the custom 200grain boattails . I can only guess what velocity 80.5 grains of 4350 shoves these loooong pointy solid bronze lathe turned javelins out of it's 36" barrel, prolly around 3000fps, but just goes to show-NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN!
BTW, I only have about 40 of these relics left although I have shot the thing a few hundred rounds with 120 grain Sierra's at 400+ yard ground squirrels off the back of a truck!

 

[Tony Williams]

Area rule bullets? Why not? It could lessen the barrel drag and allow higher pressures/velocities too. Hope it doesn't move the ogive foreward too much.

Nitpick - the 'area rule' just states that the cross-sectional area should change smoothly without any abrupt increases. In aircraft, that means a wasp-waisted fuselage where the wings join, to allow for the area of the wings. In a bullet, the area rule means that they should be - (drum roll) - bullet shaped!

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

 

[sscoyote]

Good luck with those LRB bullets-- guess some of the guys on longrangehunting.com didn't have much luck with them. I've got a 16" 7 twist Pac-Nor barrelled XP-100 in 7 WSM that i'm gonna be trying some of Richard's bullets out of-- 200 grains BC of close to 1.0-- accurately i hope. We'll see. I've also got some of his 142 6.5's that i'm gonna try tomorrow out of another XP-- this 1 a 6.5-284.