thoughts on a .357 hunting load for deer

[herkyguy]

I have a GP100 with a 6" barrel which I have used in the past to hunt. I shot a small buck several years ago (I am confident I hit slight back from the shoulders) but never could find him and stopped hunting with a revolver because of it.

I want very much to use this gun since many of my stands offer no more than a 20 yard shot and many deer have picked up on my swinging a shotgun around. I think a revolver may give me an advantage.

I have loaded quite a bit of .357 and .38 for the gun and just picked up a box of Hornady 158 Grain XTP bullets. I use Win296 for my .357 loads and looking at Hodgen loading data, with a load on the higher end, they noted between 1400 and 1600 fps out of a 10" barrel. I have the Hornady manual at home, but haven't looked up this particular load yet.

My barrel is only 6", so I know the velocity will be a bit lower, but does anyone have feedback on these particular bullets, their performance, or the idea of a .357 for hunting medium-sized NC deer?

 

[rcmodel]

You can expect about 1,300 - 1,350 FPS out of a 6" revolver with a Max load of W-296.

And if that 158 XTP won't kill a deer I don't know what will.

Assuming you hit him in the right place.

rc

 

[illinoisburt]

Hunting with handguns will not give you the same type of knockdown you see with a shotgun slug or rifle bullet. Most hollow point handgun bullets are made for self defense and usually max out penetration in well under 18 inches, especially if bones or heavy hide (think hog shield) are hit. They can do an ok job on a whitetail deer with a solid side profile shot. Early handgunners learned that deeper penetration is better, especially for less than optimal shot angles. Following the Keith ideal of hard cast flat points is certainly not a bad idea. That said everyone finds what works for them.

My preference is to look for heavier bullet weight and more solid construction. You probably aren't going to get DRT with most handgun loads, so try for full penetration with 2 holes to help with blood trailing. Look for loaded ammo made specifically for hunting rather than self defense.

The 158 Grain XTP should work fine so long as you stick to archery type shots (side profile, quartering away heart/lung angles).

 

[USSR]

I've shot and killed 2 deer with a .357 Magnum revolver. After noting less than spectacular results, I have since moved on to the .45 Colt cartridge which is a much better deer round.

Don

 

[gamestalker]

I've seen two large mule deer drop in their tracks when shot with those 296 loads, one with a 125 gr. XTP, and one with a 158 gr. Gold Dot.

The Gold Dot was from 100+ yds. head shot, he flipped back and his legs went straight up in the air. Through and through and left a large exit wound. Oh, and did I mention that was with a 4" Taurus 608, which is actually only 2" of rifled barrel, the other 2"'s is expansion chamber of the porting.

The other mule deer was shot through the lungs from about 60-70 yds. with a S&W 66 snubby using a 296 load, and a 125 gr. XTP. He didn't go far, like maybe 40 or 50 yards before he just piled up. Through and through the kill zone with a pretty decent exit hole.

So yes, the .357 mag is very capable of getting the job done. Shot placement is important, but that holds true with any cartridge or weapon. I saw a deer lost this last hunting season that was hit good with a .243 win, 100 gr. PSP full tilt load IMR-4350, yet we still never recovered that buck.

GS

 

[41 Mag]

I would go with what ever bullet brand you can find enough to practice a ton with. I would stick with a 140gr or 158gr at the minimum simply to aid in penetration.

The Speer Gold Dot, Sierra Sport Master JHC, the Remington SJHP or the one you have the XTP will all work well if you can put them where they need to go.

I might also try out at least something like AA_9 as well to compare the groups and velocity your getting. Not to mention AA-9 has a bit lower muzzle flash. Then there is also Blue Dot as long as you stick with the heavier weight bullets. for just about anything but H-110 or 296 you really don't have to use the mag primers either, and sometimes using them, will cause groups to spread out.

The key thing is to practice plenty and also if your planning on shooting at a downward angle you need to practice that as well. You might be surprised at how differently your gun shoots at a steep angle.

Good luck to you, hope you bag a big one.

 

[herkyguy]

Roger on all. I think I'll give it a try come gun season. luckily I hunt my own land so i could actually climb up in my stand off-season and see where I'm hitting from 25 feet up.

First loads will be worked up in the next few weeks and I'll go from there.

 

[BluewaterLa]

Keep us posted on your work ups and findings on any gathered data or progress.
I'm also pondering the use of my S&W 357 mag for some sport challenge and
Dinner plate work out regimen

 

[WestKentucky]

About a dozen handgun kills under my belt on whitetail. The first 6 or so with .357 6" Taurus 66, the rest with .44 mag and one rapid fire string out of a .40sw after it chased my motorcycle up my driveway.

I handload everything. For both 44 and 357 I tested a lot on water jugs and figured out that the big, wide open hollowpoints which are scored to pull apart work wonderfully. I know it was a 158gr Speer launched by 2400 that claimed the first, the rest of the .357 deer were taken with lighter bullets with huge open faces which expand very violently and lose energy quickly. For .44 I do the same. An interesting thing to note is that performance isn't best at the top end of the load range. A bullet exiting the rear is wasting energy that could be delivered internally. Slow the rounds down a bit and they will work as well or better.

.357 is more than adequate for deer. Bigger is better though which is why I went to 44. Heavier bullets hold energy longer. Range extension is a big deal. The big difference up close is that a 44 has shockwave tissue damage like a rifle where a .357 doesn't do much there. Shot placement is big with .357

 

[gamestalker]

I've also had a few friends that have had excellent results using lead rather than jacketed. I don't have any personal experience there, but I've definitely seen some dropped with a non jacketed projectile.

GS

 

[CraigC]

A bullet exiting the rear is wasting energy that could be delivered internally.

Nonsense. Energy doesn't kill. There is no such thing as "energy transfer". Trauma and blood loss is what incapacitates and two holes bleed better than one. Only the wrong handgun bullet fails to exit a whitetail.

 

[Buck13]

two holes bleed better than one.

That's as much a fallacy as "kinetic energy kills." Maybe even more so.

An animal is not like a car engine. You do not have a sump pump in your chest that picks up blood from a pool and returns it to the circulatory system.

If you had identical wounds except in one case the bullet stopped under the skin and in the other it just tore through and left a half-inch hole, there would be no difference in how long it would take the animal to fall down. Internal bleeding is equally bad, regardless of whether the blood is draining out of the body or not. The back-pressure in the wound channel is not significant enough to slow the flow of blood out of a severed artery or arteriole (although from a vein...maybe).

Blood falling out of an exit wound will make *tracking* a lot easier, so that could make a huge difference in recovered animals, even if they run the same distance.

 

[gamestalker]

I've always loaded my hunting ammunition up to it's safe maximum. Whether or not it has helped to drop my game faster, well, I don't know, what I do know is I prefer to see a good blood trail to track.

And I also think a higher velocity HP handgun projectile needs enough velocity to expand to do as much vital damage as possible. This is also why G&F doesn't allow the use of FMJ's in my state for hunting game animals.

GS

 

[CraigC]

That's as much a fallacy as "kinetic energy kills." Maybe even more so.

An exit wound does not just represent a hole in the skin on the far side, smart guy. But thanks for picking through to find something to argue with.

The point being, whether it results in increased trauma or a better blood trail, an exit wound is NOT "wasting energy that could be delivered internally".

 

[WestKentucky]

I still disagree. A bullet that pokes through is a bullet that didn't expand as much as it could/should have. A shot stopping on the back side under the skin does as much internal damage as anything but it also represents a bullet expanding and shredding as much heart lung etc as possible I n its way. So energy that is existant on the exit is wasted energy as it could have and should have done something inside the critter. If you want bang flop you do it with a bullet that basically detonates an inch into the critter so that there is as much damage to heart and lungs as possible. If you have a fmj that pokes a hole straight through then you better be wearing hiking boots cause your on a blood trail. What your after is that bang-flop round so usually softer lead core that is designed in such manner that your .357 ends up at .7 or so and leaves a gaping hole in the deers vitals. So yes an exit wound indicates wasted energy because that energy should do something inside that critter. Only way it's not wasted energy is if you line 2 up and decide it's time to save ammo.

 

[beeenbag]

I know from first hand, when hunting with handguns, you want an exit hole. In my experiences, an entry hole will not bleed near as much as an exit hole. I used to use lighter, expanding bullets when handgun hunting, now I use a 310g lead, gas checked, hard cast wide meplate bullet. I have made great double lung shots with a 200-240g xtp, and the deer ran, with little blood trail to follow. I hunt in thicker, more brushy woods, so a blood trail to follow is critical to finding the deer. I have found, with an exit wound from the bullet I currently use, there is plenty of blood to track.

 

[Captcurt]

I try to take at least one deer a year with my GP. The last 6 or 7 deer have fallen to a 180 gr XTP running 1200 fps. None of them went over 50 yards after being hit and all of them were pass throughs. Maximum loads of H110, AA#9 or 2400 will get it done.

Buck13, I don't know if you have taken a deer with a handgun. After taking up to 6 deer a year for the last 50 years I feel qualified to say that I want complete penetration. A bullet doesn't have to expand to kill. The American Bison was nearly a memory because of a 500gr chunk of lead that was lobbed from over 300 yards at around 1400 fps. I doubt if they expanded much.

 

[USSR]

If you had identical wounds except in one case the bullet stopped under the skin and in the other it just tore through and left a half-inch hole, there would be no difference in how long it would take the animal to fall down.

Okay, now tell me how you are going to find 2 identical deer and deliver 2 identical shots (except, of course, the one won't exit) to prove this ridiculous statement.

...energy that is existant on the exit is wasted energy as it could have and should have done something inside the critter.

Sorry, but there is no mysterious "energy" that zaps creatures, unless of course you are hunting with one of the Star Trek phasers. CraigC is correct, blood loss caused by trauma and resulting in a rapid drop of blood pressure is what kills, unless you hit the CNS. And, two holes results in a more rapid loss of blood and blood pressure.

Don

 

[Steve2md]

I'll say this on the energy debate: Energy does not just disappear from this planet. It simply transfers to a different form. Kinetic energy from a bullet MOST CERTAINLY transfers to the animal. If it didn't, the wound channel would never be any larger than the bullet itself. A heavier, faster, well expanding projectile that can dump all of its energy (read: Inertia) in the right spot will do more damage than a lighter projectile of the same size moving slower. The math gets interesting when the variables of speed, mass, and volume come in to play, but you should get the point.

My suggestion for round selection for your .357 hunting loads are to use the heaviest expanding projectile that will shoot accurately from your handgun and load it to a speed that will reliably open it up at the depth you need for the size animals you choose to hunt. That being said, I've taken 3 mule deer with 158gn cast lead flat points and 2 of 3 dropped in their tracks with heart/lung shots. The third made it 10 yards or so with the same shot placement.

 

[35 Whelen]

Energy, boys and girls, is nothing more than math. If energy were truly the end-all measurement of a projectiles killing ability, then the shape of said projectile would make no difference. Energy isn't dumped, deposited, or in any manner left in the creature through which the projectile passes. And if you believe there's no difference in one hole in an animal and two, then obviously you've never seen the spray of blood, lungs, muscle etc. that exits an animals body with a projectile.

35W

 

[Scimmia]

Energy, boys and girls, is nothing more than math. If energy were truly the end-all measurement of a projectiles killing ability, then the shape of said projectile would make no difference. Energy isn't dumped, deposited, or in any manner left in the creature through which the projectile passes. And if you believe there's no difference in one hole in an animal and two, then obviously you've never seen the spray of blood, lungs, muscle etc. that exits an animals body with a projectile.

35W

You need to go back to Physics 101. Energy is what does the work, the bullet is the vehicle that determines how that energy is applied. To say energy is nothing more than math is just plain silly.

As for one hole or two, internal bleeding is just as effective as external. That second hole is meaningless, it's the total wound cavity and, of course, shot placement that count.

 

[noylj]

Thoughts?
I sufficient power except at closer than 50 yards.
Thankfully, deer are rather thin skin, so you may kill more than you simply injure.

 

[GP100man]

Yrs ago I shot a 140ish # deer with a seirra 140 gr, gameking with all the #9 powder it`d hold (master blaster load) & ruined 1/3rd of the meat (off shoulder) bullet never exited.

Now I`m a meat hunter & in the beginning of the fall season of my life & qwik expiration & minimal meat damage ,with good blood trail is my goal.

I shoot a good booilt either a NOE 360-180 rnfp or a NOE 358429 both runnin in the 1K+ range . Shots are limited to what I can do to a 8" plate on any given day of the season.

Shot placement is critical , more so with handgun cartridges , YES I mean with ANY handgun cartridge & according to the type/size of game hunted bullet/or boolit selection becomes even a bigger factor !!

I`m in the camp of 2 holes a bleedin !

GP

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I read this entire post and don't understand something about this whole energy transfer thing.

If two loads with same bullet, one a hotter load than the other, hit two different deer of the same size in the same place, and both bullets expanded at the same rate, one exits the other side, the slower one doesn't, how can the bullet that didn't exit, transferred more energy to that deer?

Your plowing the same size hole through the deer with both bullets fully expanded, the one that exits plowed further doing even more damage. Just because it exits it may have had to much energy being a pass through but it would have had to impart more energy transfer to the deer.
I never understood this.

I'll keep shooting through them, my goal is to not loose one. My old 44 always did a good job of that.

 

[Captcurt]

I read this entire post and don't understand something about this whole energy transfer thing.

If two loads with same bullet, one a hotter load than the other, hit two different deer of the same size in the same place, and both bullets expanded at the same rate, one exits the other side, the slower one doesn't, how can the bullet that didn't exit, transferred more energy to that deer?

Your plowing the same size hole through the deer with both bullets fully expanded, the one that exits plowed further doing even more damage. Just because it exits it may have had to much energy being a pass through but it would have had to impart more energy transfer to the deer.
I never understood this.

I'll keep shooting through them, my goal is to not loose one. My old 44 always did a good job of that.

I am with you on the shoot through.

The only fly in the ointment is the speed. If the bullets start at different speeds they are not going to expand at the same rate. Especially in handgun calibers. 200-400 fps can make a big difference in bullet performance at the lower speeds. I have proven this to myself by shooting different loads into clay. The XTP did not expand much if any at slower speeds, yet half of the deer that I have taken were bang/flops. It isn't what you hit them with. It is where you hit em.