Thoughts on Berry's .458 bullets?

[ATCDoktor]

I shoot a lot of Berry’s .458 diameter bullets out of a myriad of rifles chambered in 45/70 and they are capable of outstanding accuracy.

I shot this group this afternoon with my Uberti Hi Wall:

5 rounds Berry’s .458 350 grain plated bullets at 100 yards off the bench.


These were loaded with Alliant Unique and velocity averaged 1420 FPS.

I find if I push them higher than1500 FPS accuracy turns to crap.

 

[King Medallion]

These Berry bullets won't chamber in my Browning 1886's, which really don't have much for throats, but they will chamber in my Uberti 1876's in 45/75 and 45/60.

 

[Captain*kirk]

These Berry bullets won't chamber in my Browning 1886's, which really don't have much for throats, but they will chamber in my Uberti 1876's in 45/75 and 45/60.

This is one thing that concerns me...the new rifle I'm wanting to build a load for is a (Miroku) Winchester 1886. The location of the cannelure looks like it might be a bit long for a typical lever action.

 

[Captain*kirk]

I shoot a lot of Berry’s .458 diameter bullets out of a myriad of rifles chambered in 45/70 and they are capable of outstanding accuracy.

I shot this group this afternoon with my Uberti Hi Wall:

5 rounds Berry’s .458 350 grain plated bullets at 100 yards off the bench.


These were loaded with Alliant Unique and velocity averaged 1420 FPS.

I find if I push them higher than1500 FPS accuracy turns to crap.

That's good shootin', pilgrim. What's your load of Unique?

 

[dobedo]

???
My High Wall is shooting less than 2" groups at 100yds with open iron sights (from the bench).

I shoot the way I hunt, no bench rest free standing with a Henry H010B 45/70. I was taught this way when I was 8 years old using a 22 over and under 410. He told me it will be difficult and with time you will become proficient. He also said there are no bench rests in the wild when hunting. Good shooting with 2" groups with open sights.

 

[dobedo]

This is one thing that concerns me...the new rifle I'm wanting to build a load for is a (Miroku) Winchester 1886. The location of the cannelure looks like it might be a bit long for a typical lever action.

I found when loading with a different MFG bullet to make it long and then keep adjusting your dies down with an empty round. When you get the plunk, as you are drop it in and the case falls out you are good to go. Then I take measurements and make the round as a blueprint. then use the round to set up your dies in the future.

 

[ATCDoktor]

These Berry bullets won't chamber in my Browning 1886's, which really don't have much for throats, but they will chamber in my Uberti 1876's in 45/75 and 45/60.

This was an issue for my Browning 1886 as well, but Berry's has changed the shape of their .458 350 grain bullet to a more tapered ogive as opposed to the old "Round Shouldered" profile.

I'll post a pic of the two side by side (when I get off work) to show how they changed the profile.

The new shape runs fine in my Browning.

 

[Charlie98]

(double post)

 

[Charlie98]

These Berry bullets won't chamber in my Browning 1886's

This is one thing that concerns me...the new rifle I'm wanting to build a load for is a (Miroku) Winchester 1886.

This was an issue for my Browning 1886 as well, but Berry's has changed the shape of their .458 350 grain bullet to a more tapered ogive as opposed to the old "Round Shouldered" profile.

You are not alone. My Browning (Miroku) 71 .348WCF rifle has a very short rifling leade. I was getting pressure signs with the Hornady 200grn JSP bullet and a starting load of H4831, so I reduced it 3grns, and came up with a reasonable load. Fast forward a few years, and reading about it on the internet, I realized what the problem was... but by that time, I was loading cast bullets, instead. I wound up cutting down a small number of brass from 2.245" to 2.200"... to get the bullet out of the rifling. I about cried, cutting down that expensive brass, but it gave me a way to load those Hornady bullets safely.

I did have a Browning 1886 for a while... I don't recall issues with a short chamber or short rifling leade, but I wasn't looking for it, either.

 

[Charlie98]

What's your load of Unique?

I would guess he's loading about 15grn of Unique... based on my chrono readings from my Pedersoli.

 

[Captain*kirk]

I would guess he's loading about 15grn of Unique... based on my chrono readings from my Pedersoli.

My reason for asking is that I have plenty of Unique, and my supply of H4895 is dwindling. Not sure what Hodgdon's major malfunction is, but I may be shopping for a new load in the near future

 

[Captain*kirk]

I shoot the way I hunt, no bench rest free standing with a Henry H010B 45/70. I was taught this way when I was 8 years old using a 22 over and under 410. He told me it will be difficult and with time you will become proficient. He also said there are no bench rests in the wild when hunting. Good shooting with 2" groups with open sights.

Standing free hand, a 6" group is commendable!

 

[Charlie98]

My reason for asking is that I have plenty of Unique, and my supply of H4895 is dwindling. Not sure what Hodgdon's major malfunction is, but I may be shopping for a new load in the near future

Truthfully, the best cast rifle powders out there are in the IMR4198 range... including IMR or H4198, AA5744, or Reloder 7. I would be perfectly happy with any of those, and have used all of them except RL7. The alternates would be 2400 or IMR4227, I've used 2400 in the .45-70 with good success, and IMR4227 in cast .30's with good success. Heck, I tried IMR4227 in the .348WCF, and it gave me single digit SD's.

I have used Unique in the .45-70... the classic load of 15grn Unique under a 405grn cast bullet, and it did well. I'm not super enthused about that tiny charge in that coffee can of a case... that's just my personal preference... so I tend to stick with larger charges of sticks... IMR4198. I don't see why it wouldn't work equally as well with plated bullets.

 

[ATCDoktor]

Here are a couple of pics of the “new” profile for Berry’s plated .458 diameter 350 grain bullet.

New profile on the left, old profile on the right:
I would imagine the change in shape came at the request of those shooters who have adopted the 458 SOCOM because (in my mind) the more tapered ogive would feed better in a semi automatic platform.

As I shared earlier, the new profile feeds no problem in my Browning 1886, the old one will not.

With regard's to what charge of Alliant Unique I use for my 45/70 loads using this bullet, I started at 15 grains and worked up to where I got the velocity node I wanted.

15 grains of Unique out of the 30 inch barrel on my Uberti got me about 1250 FPS with very good accuracy but I wanted the speed up around 1450 and was able to do that safely by working up slowly.

If anyone wants the exact load I used, shoot me a PM.

As far as the 15 grain load was concerned, here’s a 10 shot group I fired on Monday whilst conducting load development for the rifle:

10 shots 100 yards off the bench Uberti Hi Wall 15 grains of Alliant Unique and Berrys .458 350 grain tapered profile bullet:


As far as using Unique is concerned, what I like about it it is, it was originally billed as a rifle powder for midrange loads, it isn’t position sensitive (no filler is required) and a little goes a long way.

I know there’s people out there that concern themselves over double charging cases but sound loading practices will preclude that from happening.

Edited to add:

That same load that gives me 1450 FPS out the the 30” barrel on my Hi Wall gives me an average velocity of 1175 FPS out my JM Marlin Guide Gun (although accuracy isn’t as good) I blame that on 60 year old eyes, 18.5” barrel and a stock trigger on the Marlin.

 

[jmorris]

Mostly airborne lead reduction and and barrel leading.

They will do that better than cast, even coated, if you don't push them too fast, for those goals.

Accuracy, not so much but there's enough there for "range fodder".

 

[Captain*kirk]

I'm not super enthused about that tiny charge in that coffee can of a case...

LOL! That it is!
I wonder about that small of a charge of Unique lying on the bottom of the case...causing wide velocity swings as it does on some larger pistol cases?

 

[Captain*kirk]

Accuracy, not so much but there's enough there for "range fodder".

"not so much"...as in? What sort of groups @100 yards?

 

[Charlie98]

15 grains of Unique out of the 30 inch barrel on my Uberti got me about 1250 FPS with very good accuracy but I wanted the speed up around 1450 and was able to do that safely by working up slowly.

One of my concerns about a tiny charge of Unique in the .45-70 case is not necessarily a double-charge (my reloading technique is sound enough I don't worry about that,) but, rather, the pressure spike of the relative fast (for a rifle powder) Unique. 15grn behind a Rainier 350grn plated bullet (I don't have the Berry's in my list) is pushing 22K PSI, according to QuickLoad. 17grn Unique is knocking on the door of nearly 28K PSI... and my Pedersoli is only rated, per the manufacturer, for just short of 32K PSI. Throw in some reloading variations, and it could easily go over max rated pressure. The same could be said for other 'pistol' powders used in low-velocity loads... like TiteGroup and RedDot. Using a slower powder gives you reasonable velocity, while not pushing pressures.

Having said that, I've loaded Unique in my .45-70 and it worked well enough. 15grn Unique with a cast 405grn bullet gave me 1200fps, which roughly correlates with your 1250fps with a 350grn bullet.

LOL! That it is!
I wonder about that small of a charge of Unique lying on the bottom of the case...causing wide velocity swings as it does on some larger pistol cases?

Unique is fairly position insensitive. Some people put filler in the case to hold the charge against the primer... something like a tuft of Dacron, and I've heard of some people using Cream of Wheat as filler. Never EVER put a rigid wad on top of smokeless powder. I don't waste my time doing something like that... I just use a more appropriate powder.

 

[Captain*kirk]

One of my concerns about a tiny charge of Unique in the .45-70 case is not necessarily a double-charge (my reloading technique is sound enough I don't worry about that,) but, rather, the pressure spike of the relative fast (for a rifle powder) Unique. 15grn behind a Rainier 350grn plated bullet (I don't have the Berry's in my list) is pushing 22K PSI, according to QuickLoad. 17grn Unique is knocking on the door of nearly 28K PSI... and my Pedersoli is only rated, per the manufacturer, for just short of 32K PSI. Throw in some reloading variations, and it could easily go over max rated pressure. The same could be said for other 'pistol' powders used in low-velocity loads... like TiteGroup and RedDot. Using a slower powder gives you reasonable velocity, while not pushing pressures.

Having said that, I've loaded Unique in my .45-70 and it worked well enough. 15grn Unique with a cast 405grn bullet gave me 1200fps, which roughly correlates with your 1250fps with a 350grn bullet.



Unique is fairly position insensitive. Some people put filler in the case to hold the charge against the primer... something like a tuft of Dacron, and I've heard of some people using Cream of Wheat as filler. Never EVER put a rigid wad on top of smokeless powder. I don't waste my time doing something like that... I just use a more appropriate powder.

Like you, I prefer a stick powder for larger cases when I can find the appropriate one. It meters better also, IMHO.