Thoughts on the Training Roadmap and Objectives

[Kleanbore]

We all advise anyone who acquires a gun for self preservation to "get training"--that is, learn to use it.

We know that there are other things to defensive education and training--the law, tactics, recognizing danger, and so on.

It is important to emphasize also that basic gun handling and shooting skills, while an essential first step, do not equate to effective defensive shooting skills. The defensive shooter will have to present their firearm quickly, may need to shoot from a stance unlike what we see at the range, fire more quickly at a moving target that is likely well inside of our seven yard distance at the range, and shoot a whole lot more rapidly than one does whan "going shooting".

The defender will have to get their shots into a loosely defined body area quickly, and will not be concerned about group size.

One other important thing: at the range, we can see the targe, we face it, we have a clear field of fire, we have a backstop, and no one will step in front of the firing line. When we must employ deadly force on a parking lot or at the charging station, none of that is set up for us. We have to detect and identify the target. Compliance with a much more complex application of Rule 4 is entirely up to us.

Basic firearms training must come first, but it cannot prepare the trainee for what they would have to do in that scary moment when the balloon goes up.

The shooting parts of all of this--turning, drawinf while moving off line, shooting--would ideally be conducted with live fire, but that may not be practical for everything, and dry fire or Airsoft can be used.

Also, some purely mental exercises can be brought to bear--might somene be lurking behind that dumpster, if I had to shoot in that direction what would be my backstop, does that fellow look out of place.... On can do that anywhere, all the time.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

I’ve read that 95% of all gun owners get only the minimum training to obtain a CCW.

 

[GEM]

That was Karl Rehn's study. It can be found on krtraining.com, https://blog.krtraining.com/beyond-the-one-percent-part-1/. I have pulled my hair out at times trying to get males who were 'gun guys' to train or compete. They did not see the need due their intrinsic abilities (ahem).

 

[AJC1]

That was Karl Rehn's study. It can be found on krtraining.com, https://blog.krtraining.com/beyond-the-one-percent-part-1/. I have pulled my hair out at times trying to get males who were 'gun guys' to train or compete. They did not see the need due their intrinsic abilities (ahem).

I'm currently trying to figure out a dynamic training plan for me and the boy. The area I have will allow for motion of the trainee but no moving targets. All the practice at offhand Silhouette training should help a little.

 

[luzyfuerza]

I'm currently trying to figure out a dynamic training plan for me and the boy. The area I have will allow for motion of the trainee but no moving targets. All the practice at offhand Silhouette training should help a little.

@AJC1 , by "dynamic training" are you referring to shooting a defensive handgun while moving, in realistic scenarios?

Skimming through your recent posts, its clear you're an expert reloader, and that until a few years ago, you favored rifles (esp lever actions). But I didn't see any posts that described how much basic handgun training you have had.

Here are my thoughts on developing a dynamic/scenario-based training plan.

If you both haven't already, find someone who will teach you:

1) how to quickly draw from concealment and accurately put multiple rounds into anatomically significant target zones at distances between "bad breath" and 15 (maybe out to 25) yards,

2) how to draw from concealment and engage targets on your gun side, support side, and behind you,

3) the footwork used to fire while advancing, retreating, and moving laterally,

4) how to engage targets with dominant and non-dominant hands only,

5) how to shoot from field positions behind various kinds of cover,

6) how to engage multiple targets, and

7) how to perform various reloads and to clear basic malfunctions quickly and smoothly.

Then practice each of these skills in live fire to the point that you can perform them 100% safely, accurately, quickly, and automatically, on demand.

And test your skill levels and progress using something like the old IDPA classifier.

There's a lot included in developing these skills.


Only then....

...once you have these basics down cold, you can start solving scenarios.

Most of the benefit of solving scenarios comes by doing them dry.

I like to take ASP videos, and solve the scenarios in my mind, and then dry. Occasionally, I set them up at the range and shoot them live.

Since you have a partner, have one solve the scenario while the other observes. Then switch roles.

Talk after each run. Discuss what went well. And what didn't. And then run through it again. As many times as necessary.

Train your minds to adapt on the fly by having the observer switch the scenario a bit without the "shooter" seeing the changes.

Use each scenario to identify any basic skills that you need work on.

Seek out other defensively-minded handgun shooters, and learn from them.

Down the road, you might want to seek out competent force-on-force training.

 

[Old Dog]

Let's be real. What needs to be said is that, for most American gun-owners, the only way they'll get the kind of training we think is necessary, is if they spend the big bucks to go to some of the nationally recognized, big-player schools. For almost all of us, there's nothing locally that will provide the opportunities to:

1. Draw from the holster on the range, and shoot (few commercial ranges allow drawing from the holster and firing);
2. Shoot double-taps or failure-to-stop drills of three shots rapidly (most commercial ranges forbid more than one shot per second);
3. Move and shoot;
4. Shoot at moving targets.

You want to go out on your own and practice this stuff on BLM or FS land? Good luck. Who's gonna be your instructor?

We should be talking about stuff that our people can do on their own, in their own homes, on their own property, or on whatever ranges they have available in spite of the limitations. We should be linking up our people with other, more experienced trainers and instructors that can help them out.

Have some of you guys checked out the cost of training at the reputable schools lately?

Even our great regional school, Firearms Academy of Seattle (I highly recommend) charges $525 (not including the 500 rounds of ammo you need to bring) for the weekend course on Defensive Handgun 2, which includes (what most of us consider a minimum of training)

• Defensive Draw Stroke
• Defensive Draw Stroke from Concealment
• Handgun Accuracy Relating to Self Defense
• Malfunctions and Speed Reloading
• One Handed Shooting
• Low Light Shooting
• Moving and Shooting
• Shooting at Moving Targets

It's so easy to jump on the bandwagon and preach to our choir that everyone should get training, but we need to also be realistic and realize that there's lots of our members who can neither afford the time away from their families or the jobs, nor the cost of weekend or one or two-week training courses.

My point is, that for many, the idea of formal training (including a "roadmap" or "objectives") is simply a pipe dream. That course required for their state's concealed carry license may be the only formal training they'll ever get. You can lead a horse to water, as the saying goes... Let's remember, most Americans don't like to read much, have short attention spans, and will rarely do anything more than what's required for just about every aspect of their lives.

 

[shafter]

Let's be real. What needs to be said is that, for most American gun-owners, the only way they'll get the kind of training we think is necessary, is if they spend the big bucks to go to some of the nationally recognized, big-player schools. For almost all of us, there's nothing locally that will provide the opportunities to:

1. Draw from the holster on the range, and shoot (few commercial ranges allow drawing from the holster and firing);
2. Shoot double-taps or failure-to-stop drills of three shots rapidly (most commercial ranges forbid more than one shot per second);
3. Move and shoot;
4. Shoot at moving targets.

You want to go out on your own and practice this stuff on BLM or FS land? Good luck. Who's gonna be your instructor?

We should be talking about stuff that our people can do on their own, in their own homes, on their own property, or on whatever ranges they have available in spite of the limitations. We should be linking up our people with other, more experienced trainers and instructors that can help them out.

Have some of you guys checked out the cost of training at the reputable schools lately?

Even our great regional school, Firearms Academy of Seattle (I highly recommend) charges $525 (not including the 500 rounds of ammo you need to bring) for the weekend course on Defensive Handgun 2, which includes (what most of us consider a minimum of training)

• Defensive Draw Stroke
• Defensive Draw Stroke from Concealment
• Handgun Accuracy Relating to Self Defense
• Malfunctions and Speed Reloading
• One Handed Shooting
• Low Light Shooting
• Moving and Shooting
• Shooting at Moving Targets

It's so easy to jump on the bandwagon and preach to our choir that everyone should get training, but we need to also be realistic and realize that there's lots of our members who can neither afford the time away from their families or the jobs, nor the cost of weekend or one or two-week training courses.

My point is, that for many, the idea of formal training (including a "roadmap" or "objectives") is simply a pipe dream. That course required for their state's concealed carry license may be the only formal training they'll ever get. You can lead a horse to water, as the saying goes... Let's remember, most Americans don't like to read much, have short attention spans, and will rarely do anything more than what's required for just about every aspect of their lives.

There is pretty excellent training that one can find throughout the country if one knows where to look. The days of Gunsite and Thunder Ranch being the only good options are long past.

One of these days I'll make a list of training companies and post it here. Pretty much none of them are cheap but they're all over the country and time with a good trainer can bring you far.

 

[AJC1]

@AJC1 , by "dynamic training" are you referring to shooting a defensive handgun while moving, in realistic scenarios?

Skimming through your recent posts, its clear you're an expert reloader, and that until a few years ago, you favored rifles (esp lever actions). But I didn't see any posts that described how much basic handgun training you have had.

Here are my thoughts on developing a dynamic/scenario-based training plan.

If you both haven't already, find someone who will teach you:

1) how to quickly draw from concealment and accurately put multiple rounds into anatomically significant target zones at distances between "bad breath" and 15 (maybe out to 25) yards,

2) how to draw from concealment and engage targets on your gun side, support side, and behind you,

3) the footwork used to fire while advancing, retreating, and moving laterally,

4) how to engage targets with dominant and non-dominant hands only,

5) how to shoot from field positions behind various kinds of cover,

6) how to engage multiple targets, and

7) how to perform various reloads and to clear basic malfunctions quickly and smoothly.

Then practice each of these skills in live fire to the point that you can perform them 100% safely, accurately, quickly, and automatically, on demand.

And test your skill levels and progress using something like the old IDPA classifier.

There's a lot included in developing these skills.


Only then....

...once you have these basics down cold, you can start solving scenarios.

Most of the benefit of solving scenarios comes by doing them dry.

I like to take ASP videos, and solve the scenarios in my mind, and then dry. Occasionally, I set them up at the range and shoot them live.

Since you have a partner, have one solve the scenario while the other observes. Then switch roles.

Talk after each run. Discuss what went well. And what didn't. And then run through it again. As many times as necessary.

Train your minds to adapt on the fly by having the observer switch the scenario a bit without the "shooter" seeing the changes.

Use each scenario to identify any basic skills that you need work on.

Seek out other defensively-minded handgun shooters, and learn from them.

Down the road, you might want to seek out competent force-on-force training.

I was going to use a 16" AR and practice hitting targets while walking a route. It's not battle training but I think I can build skills. I might be able to use cardboard boxes as barriers as I can move them... again not ideal but something.

 

[sirdutch]

@AJC1 , by "dynamic training" are you referring to shooting a defensive handgun while moving, in realistic scenarios?

Skimming through your recent posts, its clear you're an expert reloader, and that until a few years ago, you favored rifles (esp lever actions). But I didn't see any posts that described how much basic handgun training you have had.

Here are my thoughts on developing a dynamic/scenario-based training plan.

If you both haven't already, find someone who will teach you:

1) how to quickly draw from concealment and accurately put multiple rounds into anatomically significant target zones at distances between "bad breath" and 15 (maybe out to 25) yards,

2) how to draw from concealment and engage targets on your gun side, support side, and behind you,

3) the footwork used to fire while advancing, retreating, and moving laterally,

4) how to engage targets with dominant and non-dominant hands only,

5) how to shoot from field positions behind various kinds of cover,

6) how to engage multiple targets, and

7) how to perform various reloads and to clear basic malfunctions quickly and smoothly.

Then practice each of these skills in live fire to the point that you can perform them 100% safely, accurately, quickly, and automatically, on demand.

And test your skill levels and progress using something like the old IDPA classifier.

There's a lot included in developing these skills.


Only then....

...once you have these basics down cold, you can start solving scenarios.

Most of the benefit of solving scenarios comes by doing them dry.

I like to take ASP videos, and solve the scenarios in my mind, and then dry. Occasionally, I set them up at the range and shoot them live.

Since you have a partner, have one solve the scenario while the other observes. Then switch roles.

Talk after each run. Discuss what went well. And what didn't. And then run through it again. As many times as necessary.

Train your minds to adapt on the fly by having the observer switch the scenario a bit without the "shooter" seeing the changes.

Use each scenario to identify any basic skills that you need work on.

Seek out other defensively-minded handgun shooters, and learn from them.

Down the road, you might want to seek out competent force-on-force training.

I understand the importance of training. However, most people don't have the time or the financial resources needed to bring full fledged combat ready training to bear.

Realism is an important component to both home front defense and while traveling away from home. The level and the type of training many insist on is simply unrealistic. If such training is essential for defending yourself and loved ones then you're probably living in a combat zone and simply relocating would be a better option. Look, ammo is expensive and most people are trying to keep a roof over their heads. If you can, however afford it then good for you.

Strategic withdrawal and partnering with others in the neighborhood where you live and supporting the local police is an integral part of a great self defense strategy. Situational Awareness is another.

The legal threat posed by even some the local attorneys general in some jurisdictions can be a factor even when you do everything correct! Okay, you survived! That's a plus for sure. But what if you find yourself in jail? You could bankrupt yourself and family with legal fees even if you win. All that training won't prepare you for prison.

There have been many cases where consistent, persistent and top level training makes the "defendant" look like a nut job to the less defense educated jury pool that will decide your case. I know one such gentleman. Training at the level described here is probably best not presented on a public forum, particularly with how corrupt the Federal justice Department is under the tutelage of this and other presidential administrations.

Look, if you can afford and feel you need the type of readiness described here then more power to you. I don't have a problem with that. However, this type of training is not the be all-end all or the only focus one should have when it comes to self-defense. Those that don't understand this mindset would see those that train to this level of competency as a threat even when they're not. It would be better if one kept their training and expertise to themselves. Yeah, that's ef'd up but think about it. That's the sad state of affairs in our country no matter how patriotic and right one's situation is. You can bet forums like this one are always unde scrutiny. Just a word to the wise.

 

[Kleanbore]

There are people who actually cannot afford extensive defensive training, and there are those who could but think they can't because they who do not prioritize it highly. And personal needs vary.

For the citizen who does not carry concealed, the importance of learning to detect and react to an out-door threat, to draw from concealment while moving off-line, and to shoot while moving would be very low. I would not try to persuade anyone to spend time and money on it.

But for the concealed carrier, the importance of such things is much higher and cannot be denied, even through advanced live fire training can be costly. The citizen should consider how best to avail him/herself with the gaining of these skills, balancing live fire, dry fire, and perhaps Airsoft, while getting good instruction. For many people, an expenditure in the neighborhood of $525 is affordable and represents a prudent investment. Consider how many people here who complain about the cost of training think nothing about buying one more Python or a couple of extra Glocks.

The expenditure may require forgoing attending a couple of NFL games or going to a bass fishing tournament.

Consider the cost/benefit relationship, which really relates to risk mitigation. What value should one place on reducing the likelihood of being stabbed or shot by having greater ability to defend oneself? Whet do we think we really gain by carrying all day if we do not have the skills to use our weapon effectively for self preservation in the real world whan the need presents itself? Carrying a gun without being able to employ it only provides a false sense of security.

There are certainly things that should have a higher priority--but there are also many things that should be prioritized lower.

Most of the discussion so far has pertained to gun-handling and shooting, There is a lot more to self-preservation. With little expenditure, one can gain imprtant skills in avoiding ambush, preventing being followed home, not attacking the purse-snatcher or other thief, and so on. And the return on investment will likely be a whole lot higher.

One of the challenges that people face in learning is lkowing what one does not know. I suggest that a good one or two day course would represent a valuable investment for a concealed carrier, and that the student can then decide whether a one or two course at Gunsite or several sessions of FoF training at Asymmetric Solutions might be worth while.

 

[Old Dog]

The expenditure may require forgoing attending a couple of NFL games or going to a bass fishing tournament.

I try not to look at the question of obtaining quality training from purely a financial standpoint. Of course, for an older person such as myself, pretty well-off financially (thank you, wifey), and being retired with some savings, I can easily swing the cost of a weekend course (or even a weeklong course) at one of the name schools.

But us older folks, especially those of us who own our homes, have been in one career most of our lives, maybe can't put ourselves in the shoes of some of the younger generation, many of whom live pretty much paycheck to paycheck. Rent costs are exorbitant in most places, even many rural areas. Gas prices, groceries, for the guy (or gal) doing shift work earning an hourly wage, it's tough out there. Most people of my generation have no clue how much daycare for the kiddies costs these days. It's also not strictly the fee for a course -- it's ammo (typically 500 - 2000 rounds), gas or airfare, motels, food -- and then time away from family (gonna need daycare for the kids while you're gone and the wife still has to go to work or school? Good luck with that.)

Yeah, it's priorities, for sure, but for many people nowadays, there's mandatory priorities and anything else that falls in the category of "would be nice to have/nice to do" is gonna take a backseat.

Whet do we think we really gain by carrying all day if we do not have the skills to use our weapon effectively for self preservation in the real world whan the need presents itself?

I find that for many of us, who've availed ourselves of good training, and prioritized that in our lives, tend to subscribe to the notion that one just cannot gain the skills to use their weapons effectively if they have not trained like we have. In other words, some of us tend to look down on those we think could have, and should have, taken the training courses we think they can afford.

While it's quite true that a lot of guys who buy $4000 custom 1911s but have never done any training beyond what was required for their state's concealed carry license, might be just fooling themselves, it's not my place to tell this guy that he should've gone to Thunder Ranch for the defensive pistol class instead of buying another Nighthawk, nor is it my place to automatically presume he therefore automatically incapable of mounting any sort of effective self-defense with his carry pistol.

 

[Kleanbore]

some of us tend to look down on those we think could have, and should have, taken the training courses we think they can afford.,,,,, nor is it my place to automatically presume he therefore automatically incapable of mounting any sort of effective self-defense with his carry pistol.

It is not my place to judge anyone. else. My opinion RE: how much training someone should have taken will not determine whether he has the necessary skills when he needs them.

There are ways for trainers to judge people's performance objectively.

 

[luzyfuerza]

I was going to use a 16" AR and practice hitting targets while walking a route. It's not battle training but I think I can build skills. I might be able to use cardboard boxes as barriers as I can move them... again not ideal but something.

Thanks for clarifying.

Fortunately, the same approach applies with a rifle: master the basics of your chosen tool, and then apply those skills to scenarios in mental reps, dry practice, and some live fire work.

Instead of learning to draw a handgun from concealment, find someone who can teach you how to quickly put multiple rounds from your rifle into the vital zones of a target from ten to 50 yards away (with some work at 100 yards) starting from the various rifle ready positions.

And, of course, one-handed shooting isn't appropriate with a rifle.

Especially with your background, I think that it is probably easier to meet those standards with an MSR than with a concealed pistol.

John Farnham is still teaching. May I suggest that you consider taking something like his DTI Urban Rifle class? Unfortunately, you just missed one close to you. I'm considering going to the spring class in my home state of Utah.

DTI Urban Rifle

DEFENSIVE URBAN RIFLEThis course is designed to prepare the defensive rifleman for the safe handling and use of this specialized weapon.It has been said that by reducing necessities, we can afford luxuries; such is not the case in shooting. For only by learning the necessities�the fundamentals�can

defense-training.com

Check out the videos on the DTI website, too. https://defense-training.com/videos/
In particular, you might want to look at the two which focus on setting up a defensive rifle.

 

[luzyfuerza]

I just spent a bit of time in the sticky for shooting schools, instructors, etc.

Armed Self Defense Training Links - SHOOTING SCHOOLS/INSTRUCTORS ETC.

OK, folks, this one is a work in progress. It will take a while to put together a really useful list, but we have to start somewhere, and this is where. Please don't get insulted if you don't see your school, or your favorite school or instructor listed here. Just PM me the appropriate links...

www.thehighroad.org

I found lots of broken links, inactive schools, etc.

The firearms training industry is thin, and fragmented. And things change over time. I wonder if it would be worth THR members' time to update this list.

 

[rhino465]

Re: training costs and availability . . .

Availability of local (competent) instructors must vary widely by geographic region. Here in Indiana we have quite a few local trainers who charge significantly less than the big name national trainers, plus we we have a few dedicated individuals who bring a variety of the name instructors to Indiana for classes each year.

I'm not sure costs/tuition play as big of a role as some might think. When I was one of the principals in a local training concern, we usually charged $125-$150 for a full day class and $50-75 for our 4-hour classes. That's a lot if you don't have it, but most people who choose not to participate in training often have five times that amount to buy a new gun several times per year. If people really want to train, they will find a way. If they don't, it won't matter if it's free and you do it in their living room while they sit on their own couch.

 

[bdickens]

There's even stuff available online.

No, its not the same but I bet it would be a whole lot better than winging it when the time comes.