Thoughts on Weapon Lights

[Nightcrawler]

Okay. Owning a Surefire flashlight I'm told is a "Nitrolon G2" (the plastic entry-level ), I'm aware of what a quality flashlight they make. It certainly is brighter than all get-out. Now, it didn't stop me from carrying a pair of mini-Mag Lights (one with a krypton and one with an LED bulb) in my pack for more common uses, as the 123A batteries the Surefire uses are five bucks a pop. But, it is a nice flashlight.

What I'm wondering about is weapon lights, though. Observe the following, if you please.

The Surefire 6P light. 65 lumens for 60 minutes, two 123A batteries, rugged alloy frame. Sixty dollars or so. Not bad, right?

Surefire X200 pistol light. Also about 65 lumens, same run time, same batteries. A bit smaller for handgun use. However, is there any reason one shouldn't use these (with the cord and click-switch) on a long gun? They're certainly more compact than other s. I ask because of the following.

Surefire Millenium "Universal Weapon Light" system. For all the world it appears to be a 6P (or a derivative) with a mount for attaching to a picatinny rail. Price? Two hundred and eighty dollars.

So, I ask you folks for experienced in these matters than I. Is there any reason one should prefer something like the "Universal Light" over, say, an X200 with a tailcord, or a 6P with a tail cord and a mounting bracket? What do you get for the extra $80 to $220 that makes that worthwhile?

Does anybody have any other recommendations for weapon lights for long guns? My asking is, of course, purely academic at this point. None of my long guns have rails on which to mount a light.

However, a friend of mine may be putting a light on his forthcoming JLD Enterprises PTR-91KM4 in an attempt to one up me. I'll be damned if I'm going to be beaten at my own game and lose the arms race with my friends...

 

[bogie]

Tacticality and confidence.

Personally, I don't like weapons lights - they make really nice targets.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Couple of things.

Understand that although Surefire makes an excellent product, you can't always attach a dollar value to what they do. They make these price jumps up as they go in my opinion. They are worth what the market will pay, and Surefire knows that.


Second, to the batteries. DO NOT buy 123 batteries at Wal Mart etc.

You can get these batteries all day in the $1-2 range. Even directly from surefire they are only $21 a dozen, and that is after a recent price increase.

Buy them by the dozen and save. Better yet, some places sell them by large cases and you could split it between a few people and get them even cheaper.

They have incredibly long shelf lives, so you have a few years to use them up.

 

[Biker]

Ditto that, Bogie.
Biker

 

[Firehand]

No personal experience with weapons lights. You're paying $5 each for those batteries?!? You can order them from Surefire, get a box and with shipping it's something like $1.50-1.75 each, and at a local dealer here in OK they're $1.45.

 

[Beren]

The personal lights can work as weapon lights, but they generally don't have battery isolation or anti-shock bezels. This can reduce reliability, since the recoil of the rifle or shotgun can cause a bulb to go.

I just ordered a Surefire X200B and a Pentagon light for my AR. I'll post pics when they arrive. Streamlight makes some nice products as well.

FWIW, I'm also gauging interest in a Surefire group buy. See this thread:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=179510

 

[adaman04]

Anything with Surefire written on it is a good light. I have the G2 and an E2E Executive, both GREAT lights. Yeah, you can get Surefire batteries for 20 bucks a dozen from Surefire. I would definitely do that. I think I am going to buy 2 cases the next time I buy some. I love that first weapon light, but my vote would probably go to the 6P for what you get for the money. Yeah, its a little bit larger, but if you ever wanted just the light to tote around, it would be effective that way as well.

 

[Optical Serenity]

Take a look at the Surefire Scout light system. Its cheaper and lighter than the Millennium weapon light system, but its way better than mounting a regular light to your weapon.

 

[michiganfan]

Where you at these days? Going to be a michigander again?

 

[mustanger98]

Tacticality and confidence.

Personally, I don't like weapons lights - they make really nice targets.

I agree. Another thing that goes with this is that when somebody's under stress like that, they'll tend to shoot more instinctively (this according to some accounts by Sheriff Jim Wilson) and the weapon becomes a target because you're looking at that big hole in the end. The light becomes a good target because the threatened party is looking at the light.

 

[Jeff White]

The X200 will work on a long gun. There are no issues with recoil. Just use the picatinney rail adpter that comes with it and mount it up.

That said, most people don't feel that the LED lamp is as good as an incandesant lamp at the longer ranges you'll employ a light mounted on a long gun. The LED beam doesn't have the range and it doesn't penetrate smoke or other obscurants you might encounter as well as an incandescent light.

Jeff

 

[Cosmoline]

A lot of the tactical complaints about "making a good target" are based on MILITARY conditions, not civil defensive shooting. If you're going to drop a 12 ga slug or rifle round into a man, you'd better light him up and make extra fricking sure you've got your target and your target is presenting an imminent deadly threat.

I'd also like someone to cite some examples where a bad guy has had the wherewithall to fire into a blinding tactical light and hit anything but blue sky.

 

[mustanger98]

A lot of the tactical complaints about "making a good target" are based on MILITARY conditions, not civil defensive shooting.

My understanding is that it's a tactical advantage, and recognized as such although maybe not universaly, to have no light behind you if possible when you must defend your home from any kind of invader. If it's better not to have light behind you, IMO, it's better not to have light coming towards the bad guy from your direction.

If you're going to drop a 12 ga slug or rifle round into a man, you'd better light him up and make extra fricking sure you've got your target and your target is presenting an imminent deadly threat.

1- At what distance and under what conditions are you considering?

2- If we're talking home defense, it's more tactically sound to set up an ambush based on your knowledge of your home if you have time. If you have time to let the home invader come to you with you having the upper hand, you have time to be sure whether the "perp" is an actual perp or someone you don't want to lose.

I'd also like someone to cite some examples where a bad guy has had the wherewithall to fire into a blinding tactical light and hit anything but blue sky.

I cited the words of Sheriff Jim Wilson. What have you cited?

 

[TexasRifleman]

I cited the words of Sheriff Jim Wilson. What have you cited?

If you are not using your weapon in a law enforcement situation, then citing what a Sheriff thinks of a light has little application for self/home defense don't you think?

You're perfectly free to dislike weapon lights, but don't point to one guy as an end all be all source as to why no one else should use them.

As non LEOs we are going to be in much deeper doo doo when accounting for any stray rounds and many people believe a weapon light can help with that.

I would not use a weapon for defense inside my home WITHOUT a light.
Your argument about "tactically sound" in your home ambushes may work for you, but some of us don't live in our home alone. I plan on verifying any target in my home before I plug my 10 year old in the head.

You might not have kids, or like them, so your mileage may vary

Edited to reflect Jeff's comments below:

I took a carbine class that included night shooting. I found the weapon to be practically unusable without a light. Part of the class covered the liability of shooting unknown targets and target ID was required before being allowed to engage the target. It's scary how little you can see in the dark. How in the world you can decide if you are in a shoot/no shoot situation without being able to see your target is beyond me.

I now have the 225 Lumen bulb installed in my home defense weapon because of that.
I would rather light them up with that super bright light, hoping for some temporary blinding and risk being shot before I'd risk shooting a relative etc.

 

[Jeff White]

I really wish people who voiced their opinion on the utility of things like weapons mounted lights would also state their personal experiences both operational and in a training environment that caused them to come to that conclusion.

It seems this discussion always gets started, and few people on either side of the debate ever relate any actual experience.

Jeff

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Tacticality and confidence.

Personally, I don't like weapons lights - they make really nice targets.

Yeah they make good targets...which is why basically every professional required to clear a house has one...which is why the Marines and the JSP Contrat both required a mount for a light on their pistols...why you see so many of them on the rifles of service members, even if they have to buy them with their own money...which is why the FBI HRT and SWAT guys across the country use them...

You're a bad guy sneaking through a house at 3 in the morning. Your eyes stare intentively into the darkness of this unfamiliar environment. Suddenly as you enter a hallway a blinding white beam nails you in the face. There is a searing pain in your retinas as your pupils rapidly constrict. As a reflex action, your head snaps to the side to avoid the beam. Because this is a reflex action, you have no control over it...it is involunatry. By the time you realize what has happened, there can be two bullets in the air already coming at you.

Anyone who says they are just going to shoot at the light has never been hit in the face with a Surefire before. My brother flashed me in the face with one their 125 lumen models. We were in a well lit store and I still saw spots for several minutes. People who think it is as simple as shooting at the light have watched too many movies and need to consider the amount of light we are talking about here, and its affect on the body. We aren't talking about duct taping a $12 Mini Maglite to your barrel. Employed properly, a purpose built defensive weapon light is an awesome tool. I'd have one but I am a poor college boy. I have to save for all my toys.

 

[mustanger98]

If you are not using your weapon in a law enforcement situation, then citing what a Sheriff thinks of a light has little application for self/home defense don't you think?

Sheriff Wilson is retired from LE and has covered many aspects of LE and SD/HD use of weapons. I don't recall him saying one way or the other about a weapon-mounted light. I simply took what he said about shooting at the weapon and extrapolated it to if the weapon platform included a light. Sheriff Wilson has also endorsed a small flashlight separate from the weapon. I'm sure other LE's like Dick Metcalf and Massad Ayoob and several others could shed some light on their own experiences.

You're perfectly free to dislike weapon lights, but don't point to one guy as an end all be all source as to why no one else should use them.

I didn't just point to one guy... I simply cited one guy who came to mind readily in that one instance. But I believe you went and misread my cite and I suggest you re-read my entire post.

As non LEOs we are going to be in much deeper doo doo when accounting for any stray rounds and many people believe a weapon light can help with that.

All this debate or any debate is is "what many people beleive". As with any subject, there are always at least two camps.

I would not use a weapon for defense inside my home WITHOUT a light. Your argument about "tactically sound" in your home ambushes may work for you, but some of us don't live in our home alone. I plan on verifying any target in my home before I plug my 10 year old in the head.

My arguement will work in my home because I know my home and I know who's supposed to be here and when. I would expect you'd know your 10 year old as well as I know my parents. Now, if my 14 year old step-nephew (who also can shoot very well, but on a square range as of yet) were living in the same house with us, we'd have some matters to go over. The same would apply if I were married and had kids. Yeah, target verification... but I'd point you to some other threads in the General Discussion forum that deal with a suspected threat turning out to be a family member (thankfully, without the messy ending).

You might not have kids, or like them, so your mileage may vary

I saw the smiley, but I think this is a case where parents, kids, and assorted other family members need to be on the same page on these matters. Your mileage my vary too.

It's scary how little you can see in the dark. How in the world you can decide if you are in a shoot/no shoot situation without being able to see your target is beyond me.

That's why I said that about not having light coming from your direction. Have the light coming from behind the intruder. They can't see you, but you can see them. It helps if you strategically leave certain lights on or know the outside lighting coming in. The body language (as well as verbal) of the suspected intruder is a big clue. I'm reminded of one evening when I was 18 and I headed out to find my sister right down the street, but she and an extra-paranoid younger friend were headed back in my direction. As the distance closed, my sister's little friend saw my sillouette and started freaking out, but my sister knew it was me and pointed out to her friend that I had a bad limp was a big clue. Shoot/no-shoot? In a home invasion scenario, we're talking about much closer distances and knowing the layout and everbody who's supposed to be there. If you don't know all of your own family well enough and your family ain't smart enough to announce themselves, that's a big problem all the way around. If I think my home is invaded, I WILL VERBALLY CHALLENGE the suspect from the shadows in the house. If they don't answer so I know they're family, and if they act more threatenly, I'll know they're not family they are a target.

If you actually read my post, you'll know where I'm coming from.

Now as to whether a weapon mounted light is any count, I much prefer my 3cell Maglight (TM) to a weapon mounted deal. I think that arrange will prove more versatile for me.

 

[USMCRotrHed]

If you are not using your weapon in a law enforcement situation, then citing what a Sheriff thinks of a light has little application for self/home defense don't you think?

You're perfectly free to dislike weapon lights, but don't point to one guy as an end all be all source as to why no one else should use them.

As non LEOs we are going to be in much deeper doo doo when accounting for any stray rounds and many people believe a weapon light can help with that.

I would not use a weapon for defense inside my home WITHOUT a light.
Your argument about "tactically sound" in your home ambushes may work for you, but some of us don't live in our home alone. I plan on verifying any target in my home before I plug my 10 year old in the head.

I have some training as an LEO. so my point of view started there.

I was trained to turn on the room lights from the light switch upon entring a room with a suspected turd in it. Using a flashlight/ gun mounted light does 1 main thing. It tells the turd where you are while you are searching for him. Turn on the lights and hurry to cover while scanning the room. The turd will be "blinded by the light" and disoriented for long enough for you to locate him if you are familiar with your surroundings. This will give you a few seconds to locate the turd, verify it is not your 5 year old daughter who got up for a drink of water, and take cover or shoot.

If you enter a room with your gun light on, the turd will see you coming, have a target, and shoot when or before you ever see him.

Ever wonder why cops don't have lights on their duty weapons?

If you combine my advice with mustanger98's advice, you can formulate a good plan for most situations.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Ever wonder why cops don't have lights on their duty weapons?

One huge reason is because it makes them damn near impossible to holster!

And yes, it would be stupid to enter a room with the light already on certainly.

That's why most of the good weapon lights have a tape switch or some way of "flashing" the light for just long enough to ID the target.

That isn't something you can do with a maglight.

But hey, to each his own.

 

[Preacherman]

Back in the 1980's, I was in more than a few combat situations where lights were required to identify targets, search buildings, etc. Back then, we didn't have the Surefire or anything much brighter than a typical Mag-Lite with 3 or 4 D-cells.

Using these lights was indeed hazardous to your health: they were relatively low-light-level, so that any bad guy would not be blinded by them, but would be able to use them as an aiming point when shooting at you. For this reason, we used the old FBI light technique almost exclusively (light held way out to one side with one hand, while the other hand held the weapon in front of you and prepared to fire on who/whatever was illuminated by the light). Some of us still got shot...

With the advent of the Surefire and competitive products, with 60+ lumens in the first-generation lights and over 200 in current products, the whole situation has changed. The light is now a weapon in its own right, producing reflex flinching when a subject is illuminated, and making it literally impossible - read that again, impossible! - for you to shoot directly at the light, because your eyes will be watering so much that you won't see a darn thing, let alone your gun or its sights! These ultra-bright units are a whole new ball game in lighting up a firefight, and I have great confidence in them.

I would now have no problem putting one on a long gun or handgun in a firefight, as I would expect any bad guy to be unable to get a direct shot off at the light, or me behind the light. I really, really dislike the idea of target identification with a weapon-mounted light when innocent parties may be present, as this violates a basic safety rule, so for such situations, I'd still prefer to rely on a hand-held light. However, if I know that there are no innocent parties around (i.e. if I live alone, and anyone in my house has no right or reason to be there without my prior knowledge and permission), a weapon light is just fine with me.

BTW, I agree that it's a Bad Idea to move with the light permanently on. It should be used to illuminate a suspected target, rather than used to sweep continuously. Doing the latter still makes you a very visible target...

 

[NMshooter]

Good luck finding any targets, much less figuring out what they are, without a light.

The more output and larger diameter bezel, the more distance you can do those things at.

For indoor use 65 lumens is plenty, at least at the very short distances I practice at. Going from a P60 to a P61 bulb would be enough for longer indoor distances.

Outside, it has been my personal experience that you can not have too much light. I much prefer lighting up dark areas when looking for folks who should not be there than blundering into them. I keep a 12V Surefire with the turbo head bezel for looking around the complex at night. Works very well.

The whole point of sticking a light on your firearm is that you do not have to hold the light. Maybe you need one, maybe you do not. Ultimately the decision rests with each of us, based on individual needs. For some weapon lights are very useful.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I really, really dislike the idea of target identification with a weapon-mounted light when innocent parties may be present, as this violates a basic safety rule, so for such situations, I'd still prefer to rely on a hand-held light.

Me too, which is another reason I stuck the 225 Lumen bulb in mine. I get enough scatter light to be able to see the target without having to cover anyone with the muzzle. Just the reflection off of stuff will light up the room with that thing turned on. That worried me a lot at first, but after playing with it in the house in the dark I feel much better.

In the class I took, we had to be able to read a letter on the target before we could engage.

With the 225 Lumen Surefire, I could see the letter at 100 yards...... I was impressed.

 

[jason10mm]

I prefer the versatility of having a weapon mounted light. I also keep a hand-held light on the nightstand as well. I've taken several low-light/no light square range/house clearing/training round courses, as well as practiced clearing my own house when the alarm goes off unexpectedly or the SO "hears" a funny noise.

With a weapon mounted light I can have a free hand to hold another light, support the pistol/long arm, open doors, turn on wall switches (which, BTW, usually makes an audible "click" which can inform a BG where you are as well), defend myself from sudden physical attack, grab something, or anything else. I can also splash the floor, ceiling, or wall with a bright light to illuminate the entire room, so I can get a positive ID on someone without having to cover them with the muzzle. At short ranges, if the light is centered properly, it acts as a crude aiming point for "point" shooting.

Besides, the OPs question was about LONG ARMS! I challenge anyone to show that juggling a long arm and a hand held light is better than having a weapon light. Especially on a shotgun (particularly a pump action). For HD, where the size, weight, and cost of a weapon are somewhat secondary to practicality and utility, having a weapon light is a no brainer. So is training in your own house to best figure out how to empoy ALL of your tools!

To the OP, the expensive Millenium weapon light is a "best of all worlds" approach. It has a tape switch AND a tail cap switch. Some folks prefer to use their thumb to activate the light, others like a tape switch. This lets you do both. The bezel is also shock isolated, etc, as has already been described. If you are on a budget, the Nitrolon in a rail carrier is perfectly acceptable so long as you train to work the tail cap effectively. I've seen plenty of long arms with a small X200 or Streamlight M3, activated by a tape switch or the rocker. My perference for long arms is the biggest and brightest light I can get, so those smaller lights don't quite do it for me. I would recommend avoiding those laser/light combos. On my Streamlight M6 the laser gets washed out easily and isn't too bright to begin with. A dedicated laser may work better, if lasers are your thing.

 

[Coronach]

Ever wonder why cops don't have lights on their duty weapons?

Money.

Strangely enough, our new gun (whatever it will be) will have a rail, and we will be issued weapon lights. Why? Rule 4 always applies, and it is a heck of a lot easier to apply Rule 4 and shoot straight with a weapon light.

Mike

 

[444]

I must have missed the part of the question asking for personal opinions on the use of weapons lights, so I'll just answer the question which was actually asked.

IMO, the best thing to do would be to study the actual application you are going to be using the light on. How the light seems to function on the weapon you want to use. It would be nice if you could try it first.
The lights such as the Surefire 900 series lights are disigned and built for this purpose and result in a lot cleaner installation: no wires running anywhere, easy on and off of the light from the rail, switches that are easy to operate while using the weapon, low level LED navigation lights in addition to the big main light, etc.
I have seen pictures of weapons in Iraq where they had a vertical foregrip and a flashlight mounted right in front of it, so you could press the tailcap switch with thumb: this seems like a good low cost alternative to me.
I don't really care for running wires myself.
One thing that I have noticed that is an issue is being able to comfortably hold the switch for the light on continuously while firing. It is like your thumb gets tired and involuntarily lets up the pressure on the switch, so make it comfortable and easy to actuate.