Thoughts on Weapon Lights

[Nightcrawler]

Where you at these days? Going to be a michigander again?

Today is my last day in Pascagoula, MS. My contract is up and I'm going home. I'll only be on my icy homeworld of Hoth for two months at most though; I'm making my move to Utah in late March or early April, weather permitting.

ANYway...seems I can't ask a question without starting a debate. I guess I'm just the contraversial sort.

The M900 series...I'm sure they're good. However, I'm not especially fond of vertical foregrips, having tried them. And the M900 series lights cost around five hundred dollars.

Yes, yes, I know, pay good money for good gear, but I've got college to think about here.

Hrm. We'll see. I'm sure I won't run into many uses for a weaponlight on my FAL in any case, unless I find time to go to a training school. On a shotgun one might be more useful, I should think...

 

[444]

One on a shotgun is absolutely essential.
Once you get out there to Utah, I am sure you will be doing a lot more night shooting.
If you are not going to use a vertical foregrip, I would think that you almost have to use a tape switch to make it comfortable at all to actuate the switch from a natural hand postion on the weapon.

 

[Nightcrawler]

If you are not going to use a vertical foregrip, I would think that you almost have to use a tape switch to make it comfortable at all to actuate the switch from a natural hand postion on the weapon.

Almost certainly. They make rail covers with swith pockets in them now. How well do those work for this purpose?

 

[Cosmoline]

My understanding is that it's a tactical advantage, and recognized as such although maybe not universaly, to have no light behind you if possible when you must defend your home from any kind of invader. If it's better not to have light behind you, IMO, it's better not to have light coming towards the bad guy from your direction.

The concerns about having a light BEHIND YOU have to do with showing your silhouette. These concerns are not present when you have a blinding light in FRONT of you.

You have failed to cite any examples where someone with a tactical light was shot by a bad guy because of it.

 

[Jeff White]

Nightcrawler asked;

They make rail covers with swith pockets in them now. How well do those work for this purpose?

I'm using the TangoDown rail covers on my duty carbine now. They are well thought out and a SureFire brand tape switch fits in the slot perfectly.

HTH
Jeff

 

[Fred Fuller]

Shock isolation of the lamp assembly in incandescent lights is a big consideration, especially where heavy recoil is a given. And that can cost more. Recoil eats lamps, batters batteries and can cause your light to go dark when you really need it. Not good. Battery 'sticks' are a good idea for multiple battery in-line lights, and removing lights when not needed for practice will avoid unnecessary battering of batteries and lamp assemblies.

I have the house guns here set up for Streamlight M3s. That means the same lights can go on any of three different guns- Glock 19s (wife and I both have them), 870s (rails mounted on rings that fit under the magazine cap) and AR-15 (rail mounted at 2 o'clock on the handguard). The M3s all have their 'issue' rocker switch, which is click on in one direction and intermittent in the other. They are plenty bright for our uses. As they are easily detached and remounted there is no worry about battering the light in daytime practice.

Nothing says that because you have a light on board the weapon that you cannot use a handheld light as well. Nothing says that because you have a light on board the weapon you will turn it on the second you lay meathooks on the gun and leave it on till you put the gun down. You have options, choices, alternatives- IF you have the equipment to allow them. You should also have experience, plans and tactics to put to work along with the equipment.

New generation LED light sources are a lot more durable than incandescent lamps and are bright enough to be useful in some weapon light applications. They also offer an advantage in overall run time/battery life. I am exploring options to convert the weapon lights here to LEDs. No doubt a suitable alternative will present itself soon. Note that I am not working LEO callouts, security details or military operations. I am John Q. Public staying at home minding my own business and hoping not to have any boarders that need repelling- but trying to be prepared to do so in an expeditious manner if necessary.

I started out with weapon mounted lights in the late 1970s when I bought a High Standard Model 10A shotgun with an integral 2/D cell powered incandescent light, controlled by a rotating switch on the bezel. I always considered that light one of the big advantages of the gun, as well as its short overall length and handiness. I still like having a light on any weapon apt to be called on for defensive use around the house. With the technology currently available there is no reason not to have lights on any weapon if you want them. Cost/benefit calculations are up to each user who is not issued the equipment. New companies are getting involved in producing weapon lights all the time, new technologies are being utilized also. This subject is a moving target, as are so many these days.

lpl/nc

 

[Falconeer]

Yes, yes, I know, pay good money for good gear, but I've got college to think about here.

I have an Insight M6 I keep on my P226R. I've tried looking at the bulb with the lights ON in a room and end up eyes watering and wanting to turn away.

I think the Insight/Streamline series are a good compromise between price and performance. The M3/M6 has a shock absorbing mount for the bulb and does "90+ lumens" according to their site. You can find the M3 for $135 and the M6 for $250.

Insight makes long gun adapters and remote switches so it's easy to move between weapons.

I purchased the M6 because I wanted the laser for dry fire practice as well as the light.

 

[MS .45]

I prefer a hand-held light(when using a pistol). If checking out a noise at night, I like to be able to identify possible targets without covering them with the barrel.

 

[slopemeno]

I tried it force on force at night with paintball and found it really effective with a long gun. Creeping thru manzanita, caught some motion in my peripheral vision, closed with the group to 50', a brief blast of light and a 5 shot burst. Lots of "I'll just shoot your light" before the game, lots of "hey, let me try that..." afterwards. Fun and effective.

I also noted that lights mounted under the weapon can cast some long shadows behind objects. I think I might prefer an over the barrel light in an ideal world.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Remind me never to spend the night at mustanger98's house....

 

[Cosmoline]

I prefer a hand-held light(when using a pistol). If checking out a noise at night, I like to be able to identify possible targets without covering them with the barrel.

I like BOTH options. For sounds out and about, esp. while in civilization, a nice tactical light on a lanyard in your coat pocket is really nice to have for lighting up dark corners. But if you wake up when your door crashes in, having a weapon light is also nice.

 

[Templar223]

My .02:

1. Don't be a cheapskate and use a Surefire 6P or Brinkmann light with some sort of creative mount and switch set up. The "Weapons Light" systems are built to take the nasty vibrations and shock generated with use on a gun. These other lights are not. They are meant for your pocket or belt, not your gun.

2. If you're worried about making yourself a target by using a light... GET SOME TRAINING! Learn how to properly use a light in a tactical situation. There is good written material and plenty of classes. It'll cost you a couple of hundred bucks for formal class training, but you'll learn and internalize it better and it will be worth its weight in gold if your bacon is ever on the line.

Why do people buy a $2 flashlight to use with their brand new $600 gun. If you have a decent carry set-up or home defense gun, expect to easily spend $1250 to do it right - just for starters!

Decent gun: $500ish
Decent tactical flashlight and spare batteries: $100.
Extra quality magazines (3-4): $100
Good quality belt gear (holster, mag carriers, flashlight carrier, belt): $150+
Personal defense ammo (400 rounds for starters - shoot half of that for function testing): $200
Practice ammo: $100
Cleaning gear, safety glasses & ears, case, misc. stuff & range time: $100

And I'm sure I'm forgetting some things... like training costs, licensing fees, etc.

Again, invest in a quality weapons light if that's what you decide to do. Don't cut corners ("Oh, you don't really need [this or that]" BS) and don't be a cheapskate, UNLESS that's what your life is worth. In which case, all the best to ya. If that were the case though, you probably wouldn't be reading THR.

John

 

[thereisnospoon]

So carrying an oil lamp with a mirror behind it would be a bad thing?

 

[LAK]

Weapon mounted lights are a liability. If your light goes awry, or more specifically it's switch, your light may come on when you do not want it to, or not switch off at all.

A weapon mounted light is also a limitation on both the light and the weapon, since both must be directed at the same place at all times. Even if you carry an additional handheld light, the liability of a light that may come on and will not switch off - and can not be tossed away - is more than I want.

Better to practice low light and point shooting, have a good handheld like a 2-cell Streamlight or SureFire, and use it sparingly.
--------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedtstates.org

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

my experience at Blackwater

i found that a weapon mounted light was superior to a two-handed hold (pistol in strong hand, light in weak hand) when it came to:

1. holding the weapon and light up for an extended amount of time

2. pointing the light consistently in the same direction as the pistol

your eyes, at light, will instinctively gravitate towards your light. however, as fatigue and stress set in, your flashlight and gun deviate in direction.

this was clearly demonstrated to us during a night shoot at Blackwater. in addition, a Dallas PD officer was killed a few months ago when he did not have a weapon-mounted light on his AR15 and was clearing a backyard. bad guy, hiding in the bushes, shot and killed the officer after the officer had "cleared" the bush the bad guy was hiding in.

i have changed my stuff around to have a weapon mounted light on everything i carry, except my B.U.G.

this was a very realistic lesson for me. if you can afford it, then i'd advise using one.

however, it can be expensive. mounts, lights, holsters, etc., all add up.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The Surefire G2 is actually pretty sturdy as a personal flashlight. I have mounted one to an AR15 with 1" Millet rings as a makeshift weaponlight. I originally planned this as just a temporary solution until I could get a "real" weaponslight.

However, after 5,000 rounds when the lamp finally died I figured it would be cheaper to replace a $17 lamp every 5,000 rounds then it would be to buy a $300 weaponlight with the same light output. I also keep a spare G2 handy and separate from the weapon though. Total cost $66 for 2 G2s and ring mounts.

Now I couldn't say whether they would stand up to a .308 since they don't have the batteries isolated from the lamp or a shock-proof bezel (you can buy a shock proof 6P bezel for the G2 for $28 though); but if I was going to bet I would bet they would do OK on a .308.

As to "I don't like weaponlights", well if you don't have training on when to use them and when not to use them, then it may be a better idea to just stick to what you know. Also while I've never seen a light switch suddenly come on and stay on, another nice aspect of the G2 is you can just back the cap out and it is physically impossible for the light switch to come on because there is no way to complete the circuit short of jamming extra conductive material in the light.

 

[Ian]

Better to practice low light and point shooting, have a good handheld

Ever tried that with a rifle or shotgun, LAK? We did a night-shooting session in the Front Sight rifle class I took, and I can tell ya' that holding a 9lb rifle in one hand and a handheld light in the other is not a good solution.

 

[fastbolt]

For this reason, we used the old FBI light technique almost exclusively (light held way out to one side with one hand, while the other hand held the weapon in front of you and prepared to fire on who/whatever was illuminated by the light). Some of us still got shot...
Yep, there was some thought that went into this technique originally, and it wasn't arrived at in some random manner. I wouldn't necessarily consider it obsolete, either.

I really, really dislike the idea of target identification with a weapon-mounted light when innocent parties may be present, as this violates a basic safety rule, so for such situations, I'd still prefer to rely on a hand-held light. Agree ...

Weapon mounted lights ... in a L/E, civilian environment, anyway ...

Remember when the little plastic gadgets were first being sold to attach a mini-maglight to the underlug of a revolver barrel? Yep, I tried one way back then ... very briefly.

Nowadays, with the improvements in technology continually occurring, these things are becoming more practical and useful, although I personally believe their usefulness is a bit more limited than some other folks. Of course, I don't have any vested interest in selling them, either.

I have reason to train with lights. I also use lights in my work. A lot. I have no less than 6 different handheld lights available in my car, and often carry 2-3 of the various smaller units on my person when entering/clearing structures. I've had to loan them to a partner, and I've had to borrow one from a partner. None of them are weapon mounted lights, though. It's not like I couldn't use one if I desired, since one of my previously issued service pistols was equipped with a rail, and my newest issued pistol is equipped with a rail. I simply choose not to carry/use one myself ... for the time being. These things can, and may, change.

I know other instructors who favor them, others who don't (majority, including a SWAT instructor/team member) ... and some who are simply ambivalent about weapon-mounted lights on handguns. Longarms are another story.

Wanna know what I really dislike? The thought of being illuminated by another cop's weapon mounted light, as he/she comes across me ... and the only light he/she has in a low light environment is the one on the business end of his/her weapon. Considering the elevated physiological and psychological states that may likely exist in folks facing potentially life threatening situations ... and the sometimes poor trigger finger control & safety issues I see exhibited even on a static range ... this causes me no small measure of concern when I may be on the other end of the weapon light.

Threat identification is vital. Crucial. The ability & importance to see and clearly identify a potential threat can't be understated. Ditto the area behind the perceived threat.

I feel that weapon mounted lights have their place.

I feel that folks who elect to use them should carefully consider the various circumstances in which they would potentially be a benefit, as well as a potential liability.

I feel that training can be very useful in helping someone make a determination of which circumstances are which ...

I like that the improvements in the weapon mounted lights are also resulting in improvements in handheld lights, too.

I think experience, knowledge, training and anticipated/perceived threat conditions will influence someone's choice of weapon and/or handheld light source choices ... and that's probably as it should be.

Just like the muchly repeated old 'rules' of a gunfight ... rule one being 'have a gun' ... it could be said that the first 'rule' of being able to see in conditions of low light and darkness is ... have a light. The type of light can be variable, and the determination influenced by a lot of factors.

Weapon mounted lights mean that the muzzle of the weapon is also covering whatever is illuminated by the light ...

The hand needed to control and use a separate light source may mean one-handed shooting is necessary. This may adversely affect the potential shooting skills, accuracy and controllability needed by the shooter. Another one of those pesky training issues to which some users may not give as much consideration as we'd probably all prefer ...

I dislike having my trigger finger focus and concentration directed anywhere except whether or not to function the trigger. I'd rather retrain my some aspects of my grip, than start changing my trigger finger's function and control. This may affect choice and use of some weapon mounted lights.

Just some of my thoughts ...

This isn't exactly a black & white subject ... no pun intended.

For me, I prefer to consider the various circumstances and situations which I may face, and then work to maximize my advantages and reduce potential disadvantages and liabilities.