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Threatened By Nasty Old Rifle Case

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Old Partner, May 11, 2004.

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  1. Old Partner

    Old Partner Member

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    This is a pure case of murder, but, they will get away with it, Officer Safety and all...

    Deputies probe Hartigan shooting death

    Friends say the actions of the Cinco de Mayo 10K road race organizer were completely out of character.

    ERIC SAGARA
    Tucson Citizen

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    Investigators are trying to piece together why Tucsonan Michael A. Hartigan disobeyed authorities in an incident that ended when a deputy and sergeant shot and killed him.
    Hartigan, 58, was a racing promoter and a popular runner in Tucson responsible for organizing the Cinco de Mayo race.

    Deputy Derrick Tyra and Sgt. John Westmoreland shot and killed Hartigan on Friday night after he pointed a carrying case similar to one that would hold a shotgun or rifle at them, said Deputy Dawn Barkman, a Pima County Sheriff's Department spokeswoman.

    Hartigan had been dealing with his mother's recent death and coverage of last week's controversial finish to the Tucson Heartgroup Cinco de Mayo race, said his friend Randy Accetta.

    Julio Felix crossed the finish line first but was disqualified for making a premature turn that took him off course. Though there is no cash award for winning the race, Hartigan paid Felix $2,500 with a personal check, said Accetta, president of the Southern Arizona Roadrunners.

    But that incident, the death of Hartigan's mother and coming to terms with aging don't explain Hartigan's actions, Accetta said.

    "It to me feels completely shocking and out of character for the Mike Hartigan that I've known for 10 years, which leads me to think that something very deep has been troubling him," he said.

    Barkman gave this account of Friday's events:

    A friend of Hartigan's girlfriend called 911 to report a disturbance at Hartigan's house, in the 4300 block of East Placita Baja.

    Westmoreland, Tyra and Deputy Miguel Flores were on their way to Hartigan's house when Hartigan's girlfriend called 911 and told dispatchers he had a gun in his car and was threatening to shoot anyone who came near him.

    Sheriff's officials found Hartigan and his girlfriend standing outside his home, near Skyline Drive and Swan Road. The officials ordered Hartigan to show his hands and stay away from his red Jaguar.

    Hartigan got into the car, grabbed the dark green canvas case and swung it toward Flores.

    Hartigan had just brought the Jaguar that day, Accetta said.

    Tyra fired a rifle six times, and Westmoreland fired three shots from his handgun, striking Hartigan at least once. They were standing about seven to 10 feet from him when they opened fire. Flores did not fire.

    Hartigan was pronounced dead at University Medical Center. Investigators have not found a gun, Barkman said.

    Tyra, Westmoreland and Flores have been put on paid administrative leave, which is standard in such cases, she said.
     
  2. Leatherneck

    Leatherneck Member

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    Good shoot. Suicide by Cop. Pity the ossifers.

    TC
    TFL Survivor
     
  3. mwithers72

    mwithers72 Member

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    lets see six times with a rifle and three times with a handgun. AND ONLY ONE HIT from 7 to 10 feet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wait I stand corrected

    maybe time to goto the range

    I don't think it was a good shoot

     
  4. Old Partner

    Old Partner Member

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    I have watched them shoot

    I have been at a range watching them shoot. I and others (non LEO) watching never laughed so hard in our lives. Not only couldn't they hit the X ring, most of the time they couldn't even hit the paper. Two of them even dropped their pistol drawing it from the holster. Rank and file here in Arizona have to be the worst shots on earth. One of the safest places to be when they are shooting is holding the target. :neener:
     
  5. Leatherneck

    Leatherneck Member

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    Here's my thinking, based entirely on the limited facts in the article:
    911 report of MWG
    Cops arrive, observe scene essentially as expected
    Man refuses Halt/show hands order
    Man gets recognizable gun case from car
    Man points same at them.

    Reasonable fear they're about to be shot (reinforced by the apparently P-Poor marksmanship.) Good shoot. Suicide by cop.

    TC
    TFL Survivor
     
  6. Old Partner

    Old Partner Member

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    Gun Case

    How many people have you heard of that were shot by a gun case? They DID recognize that it was a gun case pointed at them. I have a rifle in a gun case and it would be quite impossible for me to shoot it while it is in the case. I also have a pistol in a holster and as long as it is in the holster it will not fire. This is not suicide by cop, it is murder by panicked cops.
     
  7. 2nd Amendment

    2nd Amendment member

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    We could argue this till hell freezes solid but I think most might agree 9 shots at a man holding a gun case is very probably the result of poor training and self-knowledge of abysmal shooting skills. "Good" or not, it could have been handled better.
     
  8. Stand_Watie

    Stand_Watie Member

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    My cases and holsters wouldn't prevent my weapons from firing. I wish they would, I wouldn't have to worry about putting my finger on the trigger when I practiced my "quick-draw" and torquing one off down the side of my leg
    :D
     
  9. CannibalCrowley

    CannibalCrowley Member

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    KVOA story

    How can anyone call this a "good shoot"? An empty case was supposedly pointed at the officers so they killed him. Does this mean that gesturing towards an officer with anything that might contain a weapon should be followed by bullets. If somone "points" a gym bag at me, do I have the right to shoot him? The bag could contain a weapon just like the case could have.
     
  10. synoptic

    synoptic Member

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    Crowley, when the police already think you have a weapon, you fail to do as they say, you get into the car where the supposed weapon is, and you point something at them, then ya, I'd say anyone in that situation should expect to get shot. With a canvas case he could easily have a hole for his trigger finger. The cops did their job, Hartigan is the one who screwed up.
     
  11. Mikul

    Mikul Member

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    We were watching the local police "qualify" at our local range. The woman who just finished her first part saunters back toward us, smiles, and says "Not bad, eh?"

    "You shot the ground."

    "No I didn't."

    "You were kicking up dirt five feet in front of you."

    "No I wasn't."

    "You don't have a single hole in your target."

    "Sure I do, they're all in there."

    :scrutiny:
     
  12. Baby Huey

    Baby Huey Member

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    Sad he died

    It's too bad that the police had to kill him. Having said that, no one can say if the officers felt in fear of their lives. Of course the case could have been modified to shoot through, and how could the officers KNOW in that time that the case was empty. It's not as if they cornered some dude at the Safeway and punched his ticket for no apparent reason. They get a call, man with a gun, order him away from the car, and he goes in the car. I don't know about you, but if I were in that situation, I might have shot before I ever saw him get the rifle case. If he is bent over inside a car, I think any reasonable person might think he was getting a gun in that situation. Would it have been better that they waited until he got a few shots off, maybe sending rounds into your house across the street? I don't know, wasn't there. It is sad, though.
     
  13. notbubba

    notbubba Member

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    CannibalCrowley asks
    "How can anyone call this a "good shoot"? "

    Well,
    This is what the police hear on the way there,

    "Hartigan's girlfriend called 911 and told dispatchers he had a gun in his car and was threatening to shoot anyone who came near him."

    The guy jumps in his car & points a soft side gun case at them!
    How hard is it to cut a finger hole into a soft case?

    How many time in movies have you seen the bad guy shoot someone with a covered gun?
     
  14. Old Partner

    Old Partner Member

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    Baby Huey, where in Sahuarita? I am in Rancho Sahuarita.

    I am still amazed that they hit him at all given how notoriously bad they are at marksmanship.
     
  15. Baby Huey

    Baby Huey Member

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    Old Partner, you and I need to become friends. I too live in Rancho, and I have too much ammo! I'll PM you.
     
  16. ShaiVong

    ShaiVong Member

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    Well it was a soft case not a hard case.. Maybe it was unzipped and he stuck his hand in it, or made the motion.:confused:
     
  17. txlewis

    txlewis Member

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    HOw about a real challenge.

    A pic of all 3 (or 4) that do not need a tax stamp.

    Personally grown tobacco, fermented beer, and a home made gun. (80% ar-15 finished to completion or similar.

    as well as some home made tannerite.


    You can do it.

    TXL
     
  18. Dain Bramage

    Dain Bramage Member

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    While I do hold LEOs to a high standard, and can be critical of them at times, I don't see this as anything but a necessary shooting. LEO's do not come equiped with x-ray vision or mind readers to decipher intent.

    Don't tell your girlfriend that you are armed and intend to shoot someone. Don't point a rifle or anything rifle-shaped at officers when they order you to stop. It seems that his recent problems contributed to his lack of common-sense, and it was probably a suicide-by-cop.

    When a suicide steps in front of a moving bus or train, we always feel sorry for the burden the driver has to endure. How about a little compassion for the officers that have to deal with society's problems?
     
  19. Carlos

    Carlos Member

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    txlewis, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT????

    OK, back to the thread:

    Leatherneck says:
    You’re kidding, right? It’s by no means a good shoot. I can’t even fathom how officers can fire that many rounds at such a close range and miss, except for one lucky shot.

    I buy the suicide by cop angle, only. Cops should be put on permanent unpaid administrative leave.
     
  20. mwithers72

    mwithers72 Member

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    If the guy stuck his hand inside the bag then I would call it a clean shoot... It the guy had a hole in the bad to put trigger finger in and also held the rifle accordingly (you would have to support the barrel in some way) then is a clean shoot.
    But just holding the thing buy the straps i don’t know and I also don’t know everything. But just by reading the report it makes me wonder that if the lack of training and the knowledge of the suspect that might have a gun could have lead to a hasty decision to fire.

    I cannot imagine the stress the LEOS were under but as I look through the posts here and hear from others on a daily basis is

    Training, training, training

    I just think that things could have turned out better.
     
  21. Mike Hull

    Mike Hull Member

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    LMAO................:D It's the same up here. :uhoh:
     
  22. Old Partner

    Old Partner Member

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    There were a lot of ways that this could have been handled better, starting with just backing off and reasoning with him. Or at least trying to. But no, they were probably just doing their normal macho cop bull by yelling orders at him. The very thing you should NOT do to a disturbed individual. They undoubtedly escalated the incident to the point they did.

    I think they should be tried and convicted of murder.:cuss:
     
  23. yy

    yy Member

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    A different take

    My $.02

    why did the girlfriend call the cops? if there's a negligent murder, she'd be it in my book.

    She called the cops

    She reported the man with gun

    Report said she "stood" with the deceased.

    give what excuses she will, but she killed him.

    Now I wonder if she emotionally unseated him in the first place.:cuss:
     
  24. 2nd Amendment

    2nd Amendment member

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    I will agree the most annoying thing in any situation is some goober screaming "orders". I don't react well to orders, especially screamed at me by someone who still has an acne problem and his shirt collar is too big for his neck... Add in an unbalanced state of mind...

    Like I said, good or not it could have been handled better. MUCH better.

    I'd thought of the girlfriend too. If there's a confrontation and there's a firearm and there's an unbalanced or potentially unbalanced individual in the mix will you be "standing" there with him? Is this merely poor use of language or what?
     
  25. Leatherneck

    Leatherneck Member

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    Carlos

    By this I mean that, if the facts as related in the brief article are true :rolleyes: then the officers were justified in shooting at him. "Good shoot" does not mean "Way to go guys, nice accuracy."

    Others: sorry, but this guy refused to obey in a tense situation and then made a credible (if uncommon) threat to the LEOs. Maybe they could have "started with just backing off and reasoning with him. Or at least trying to." But you're asking them to take a chance that this particular threat would not be the one that ended their lives. I think they assessed the (a) threatening situation, (b) unresponsive person, and (c) threat-like object turned and pointed in their direction exactly as I would have. I'm sure they had mental images of a load or two of 00 buck blasting out the end of that gun case. Right or wrong. It's second-guessing them to assume they knew at the time that there was no gun in the bag. Good shoot. Suicide by cop. :neener:

    TC
    TFL Survivor
     
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