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Three bullets failed to stop home intruder, records say

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Aikibiker, Sep 18, 2003.

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  1. Aikibiker

    Aikibiker Member

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  2. Frank P.

    Frank P. Member

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    Isn't there a saying that goes like "2 in the belly one in the head gurenteed to leave him dead?" Perhaps he should of shot the man in the head, im not a forensic scientest or a gunwound expert but wouldnt a .357 mag round to the skull of this fella would stop him? Just my thoughts

    Frank P.
     
  3. Sven

    Sven Senior Member

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    It's all about shot placement.

    A .22 in the eye? Game over.
     
  4. Aikibiker

    Aikibiker Member

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    Perhaps, but I don't know of any drills to help you headshot a schizophrenic playing peekaboo in your doorway.

    Could you do as well?
     
  5. Frank P.

    Frank P. Member

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    Good point i didnt see the part where it said he left one cylinder free, im sure he isnt going to make that mistake again. As for can i do better, i have never been in that situation so i can't honestly tell you but if i am ever put in that situation i hope i can acomplish the 2 in the belly one in the head techniuqe.
     
  6. BluesBear

    BluesBear member

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    Proves that most Gannett reporters don't know their chamber from a hole in the cylinder.

    Hydra-Shoks only work when you hit them with it.

    Repeat after me. "Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement."
    "Center mass, center mass, center mass."

    Just because the Lone Ranger and Gene Autry could stop the bad guys with a flesh wound doesn't mean it's effective in the real world.

    Whadaya call a shot gun without ammunition? A stick.

    His doctors should have prescribed: Take 3 Hydra-Shocks and don't call us anymore.
     
  7. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    Not what I'd call an ELEGANT solution...but, hey, it DID work :). The wacko was slowed down enough to matter.

    Federal is my LAST choice for 38+P JHPs from a short barrel. Gold Dot 125 38+Ps, Winchester 130+P Supremes or the old lead 158+P hollowpoint might have done better, couldn't have been any worse.
     
  8. Trebor

    Trebor Member

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    Jim,

    The revolver was identified as a S&W .357. Why do you think it was loaded with .38 Specials?

    Given all the specific details mentioned in the article (the make and caliber of the gun, the empty chamber under the hammer and the brand and type of ammo), I think that if something OTHER then .357 Magnum was loaded, it would have been mentioned as well.

    Of course, there is the question of whether or not Federal makes Hydra-Shoks in .357?
     
  9. Pinned&Recessed

    Pinned&Recessed Member

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    They do.

    158gr. at 1240 fps out of a 4" tube. I've chrono'ed some in my 4" S&W M19 and velocity averaged about 1225 with a high and low of 1240/1202 respectively. I didn't test expansion, but recall tests where it routinely expanded to well over .60 caliber. Not a bad round. Big hollowpoint cavity and it was the only .357 Magnum round to pass the FBI barrier/penetration tests. Full power 10mm also passed.

    Federal is weird. They design a great bullet: The various Hydra-Shoks and the Hi-shok for example, but then put a wimpy powder charge behind some of them. They are very bad about this with .38 Special, as Jim March has mentioned. They have some good .38 loads, you just gotta test them.

    I personally think the .357 Hydrashok is a damn good round and I pick it up when I cannot get the 158gr. .357 Nyclad.
     
  10. mete

    mete Member

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    There is no sure thing and those that have mental problems with or without medicines may very well be immune to "stopping power" because of their messed up nervous systems. Leaving a chamber empty is dumb. This is also a lesson for those who "don't want to kill him" and just shoot him in the leg -- if the bullet severs the femoral artery he will die.
     
  11. seeker_two

    seeker_two Member

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    Morals to the story:

    1. Shot placement is far more critical than caliber.

    2. Keep ammo for EVERY gun you have.


    Glad it worked out for the right side...:)
     
  12. NewShooter78

    NewShooter78 Member

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    One shot in the foot. I wonder how he managed that one! :eek: Shot placement has already been mentioned, but what about tactical reload?
     
  13. marvl

    marvl Member

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    In that situation I would have grabbed my loaded Para-Ord P-13 and a spare mag, giving me a total of 25 rounds of .45 (I keep 1 in the chamber, and load the 13-round mags 1 light). Although it only takes 1 good CNS shot, this fella's experience shows more is better when it comes to available shots. Frankly, 5 available shots just don't cut it for me. Especially after hearing some of my LEO friends' stories about dealing with perps high on PCP.

    I also wonder if this is a person who shoots regularly. I've known people I worked with who would buy a handgun for protection, load it, and store it-- never trying it out for function and accuracy, nor practicing with it. These were first-time gun owners, too. I cringe when I think about it.
     
  14. Tamara

    Tamara Senior Member

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    Today's lesson: When everything seems to be going to hell, stay in the fight!
     
  15. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Tomorrow's lesson: don't get in fights.

    Load the shotgun=no fight.

    Why people keep unloaded guns around is beyond me.:confused:
     
  16. Tamara

    Tamara Senior Member

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    El T,

    What do you want to bet that Mr. Cryderman was in line at WallyWorld the next day with a box of 2 3/4" Winchesters in his hand? ;)


    (Having unloaded guns around is just fine, so long as one also has a sufficient number of loaded ones, of course. :D )
     
  17. RWK

    RWK Member

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    My hat is off to the victim. No, he certainly is not a “gun guy†– and that nearly cost him and his family dearly. However, he used what he had, with marginal skill and effectiveness, and he saved himself and his loved ones.

    Many previous posts have emphasized accuracy – shot placement – and I heartily agree. Also, having an UNLOADED shotgun was nonsensical. Further, having no readily accessible reload was a significant flaw. All this said, the goblin did NOT reach the children and eventually died. Mission successful, although a near disaster. The essential lesson is clear: even minor enhancements to the gentlemen’s home-defense plan would have made tremendous differences:
    1. Enough practice to get two rounds (of five) in the central mass/cranial cavity
    2. A sixth round in the S&W
    3. .357 magnum loads, instead of .38 Specials
    4. An at-hand tactical reload
    5. A ready-to-fire shotgun

    I strongly suspect that if ANY of these marginal changes had been made the felon would have been quickly dispatched.

    Best regards to all.
     
  18. jsalcedo

    jsalcedo Member

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    Sheesh.

    This story is going to to make me more vigilant.

    Right now I have a VZOR 70 .32acp and two magazines hidden downstairs and a Taurus .357 loaded with .38 wadcutters upstairs.

    The rest of them are unloaded and locked up.

    I think I'm going to load up my Mossberg and keep that handy as well.
     
  19. riverdog

    riverdog Member

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    I agree with RWK's last post, but would add that the first two shots should have been from the shotgun. Two rounds of 00 Buck center mass and the S&W's six rounds of .357 (as a back-up weapon) should have ended the fight regardless of mental/psychological state.

    Personally, I use a 12 ga Rem 870/00 Buck as primary with a 1911 as back-up ... and I practice.
     
  20. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Tam, no bet! :D
     
  21. boltaction

    boltaction Member

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    The double tap plus one (to the head) is a great idea in theory, but in the heat of the terrible moment we see related here, that one to the head, well, could more likely wind up in the wall or out the door. We all know it is a matter of practice, practice, but for those of us who will experience this once in a lifetime, it is awfully tough to be sure how we will perform.

    That is why some prefer to preach the idea that you "fire for effect" (i.e. until "stopping" is achieved) with the intended target the thoracic triangle (nipple-nipple-throat). Another idea is that after one shot to the triangle (or even before) the perp may duck, causing shots to go high (the bobbing triangle problem). SO some now suggest the "zipper", where your first shot is to the navel area, and you "zipper up" the subsequent shots to the triangle. Six of one and half dozen of another, I am afraid, as you CAN levy criticisms at any of these ideas. The navel shot could easily kill the intruder, but it may not STOP him for many minutes (e.g 20 minutes). He/She could do lots of damage in that time. It has been said here that shot placement is critical, and beyond HAVING THE LOADED FIREARMSSS, and being sure of their reliability, that is correct.

    The problem is that the correct placement is difficult to achieve - CNS, aorta (the latter yielding catastrophic lowering of bloop pressure, resulting in a "stop") being effective, as well as those that cause lung hemorrhage. And to make matters worse, not all CNS shots are "equal". the base of the brain/upper spine is best. All of this again argues for the T-triangle, but again, you gotta hit it.

    Mete also had many good points (an in much less space that I am taking up) so yeah, altered states can affect these conclusions greatly; DO NOT leave that one chamber empty; and yeah - when you shoot, it can be deadly no matter where you hit, if you hit an artery or otherwise cause massive bleeding.

    e-nuf
    Boltaction
     
  22. brownie0486

    brownie0486 Member

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    If you are close enough to put one in the head on the third round, probably should think about doing it with the first round.

    I've never been one for 2 to the breadbasket and one to the head anyway.

    Under strees, perhaps the first one gets off quickly on the bigger target [ the chest ] in startle mode due to time constraints initially.

    If you are in the fight and have the time to "aim" , go for the head shot. Too many people are wearing armor these days when they commit crimes.

    You should be able to keep all your shots inside a ten inch circle at combat distances. If you can't, keep practicing until you can attain that goal with some semblance of speed as well.

    In the classes, I put forward the idea that you are handicapping yourself by practicing to hit an 18"x 20" chest area. Not all bad guys will be facing you to give you that much area to hit. If you are good at hitting that big area and they turn, hide behind a wall, corner of the building, have a hostage and are presenting a much smaller target you are then faced with a much smaller area to connect on.

    Better to practice on 10" pie plates [ the size of a head ], get good at hitting it with speed. Stay away from the larger targets and use the 10" exclusively.

    When the time comes to use it defensively in startle mode under attack, if the target is bigger than the 10" you can hold you will find it easier to shoot fast and still hit the bigger target. It almost becomes easy after the lessons on the 10" plates.

    The body may present a smaller target than you practice on at the range as it twists and turns. The head is always going to be 10" no matter how the body is turned.

    If you have time to aim the weapon at all, can keep your shots inside the 10" diameter reliably with speed, why wait to find out he's wearing armor while taking incoming?

    Brownie
     
  23. Tim Burke

    Tim Burke Member

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    He might have done a lot of things wrong, but he did 3 very important things right.
    1. Have a gun. √
    2. Stay in the fight. √
    3. Win. √
    If one's check list looks like that at the end of the fight, I would consider that a very good thing.
    Congratulations To Mr. Cryderman.
     
  24. pax

    pax Member

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    The article under discussion, from http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/htm...ocal+News&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=local_news

    pax
     
  25. TheOtherOne

    TheOtherOne Member

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    What do you mean by ready-to-fire? I keep a shotgun that is not loaded but has the tube full of 5 rounds of buckshot.

    I like the idea that alot of would-be intruders will possibly be detterred just by the sound of pumping the shotgun.
     
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