Threshold of when to use Pepper Spray

[NickBallard]

I have acquired a few pepper sprays from different companies. What is the threshold of when a civilian can use pepper spray and it would be counted as appropriate use of force for self-defense in a court of law? Obviously if your jogging along and three obvious thugs block your path and one pulls out a knife it would be appropriate to start spraying like crazy and then go in the other direction. But is it often that clear cut? Not all the time people ambush from out of no where or walk up to you slowly as they announce that they're going to hurt you. Often they'll con you, such as Ted Bundy and his, "Will you help me with my boat? My arm's in a cast and it hurts " Or one time my aunt was in New York City and someone asked her for directions while someone came from behind to mug her and they all had knives. It's very common in sexual assault for the guy to ask a woman a question and then ask her multiple questions as he moves towards her and she feels nervous but doesn't know if she should actually do something. If you spray people just because they look scary, that's obviously inappropriate, but if you're in a situation where you sense danger you don't want to wait until you're laying down on the ground being hit on your head with a baseball bat before you spray them because you're afraid of getting sued. One time I waited too long as a mean rotweiler was approaching me and it was getting low to the ground, but I didn't do anything because I didn't want the owner to see and get me in trouble because his front door was wide open. Then the rotweiler bit me. I then sprayed the dog for five seconds right as the owner was walking out of the house and then I called the police after I got away. So I learned that it's stupid to wait until you absolutely know you're in trouble because by then it's way too late. But then you don't want to spray inappropriately. So what's the threshold?

 

[Car Knocker]

I would think that, legally, the threshold to spray someone would be much the same as it would be to punch someone's lights out. Either action would constitute a battery.

 

[NickBallard]

Like I know one time a guy was at his front door when three men pulled up in their car who didn't like him. They came walking up to his door saying that they were going to hurt him. The homeowner said, "Stay away!" The three guys kept on walking towards him. The homeowner sprayed one of the guys and the guy fell towards his knees. The other two guys then took off running as fast as they could. The police said that the guy did the right thing. But what if he would have started punching the guy's lights out with his fists instead of pepper spraying him? Would the police have seen this in the same way?

 

[bigdog21]

no , battery is the unlawful striking of another. punching or using force to protect yourself is lawful force. You can use pepper spray when you feel your safety is being threatened.

 

[Kingcreek]

As soon as you feel the threat is real, spray away. All the pre-event strategizing won't mean squat when you find yourself in a situation and have a short time to react.
A few years ago, I was in a city where I had lived and attended college and I took a leisurely detour thru a neighborhood I used to know. Nice day, window down, and driving a full size pickup. Noticed the neighborhood had kinda taken on a rougher look since 25 years ago. admittedly low awareness on my part. Stopped at a stop sign waiting on cross traffic and some guy approaches the drivers side and asks if I can give him a ride. about the same time I said NO he jumps onto the running board and grabs the rearview with his left and reaches in to grab the wheel or shifter or keys with his right hand.
NOW I'm alert! :banghead:
Fox Labs above the visor, grabbed and directed into the face that is 12" away from mine.
Last time I saw him, he was rolling around screaming in the middle of the intersection. I drove 3 blocks and pulled into a church parking lot until I could recover from the blowback.

My point is: I didn't have time to think about legal consequences. Even as fast as I reacted, I almost waited too long.

 

[Valkman]

If three guys appear and one pulls a knife, you shoot them. They pulled deadly force on you so you can do the same.

If three guys appear and act threatening, you OC them and get the heck away.

Crackhead doesn't leave me alone and spits at me, I OC him. Same thing and Cracky pulls a knife, I shoot him. Simple!

 

[NickBallard]

What about these hypothetical situations?

If someone is attacking you right there and then, or they say that they’re going to hurt you and then walk towards you, obviously you shouldn't hesitate or think about the legalities. But what about less obvious situations? Many places advocate pepper spray as self-defense because since it's quite non-lethal, you'll be much more likely to use it sooner than a knife or gun and so the assault won't be as likely to escalate. Interpreting what is meant by that is a different matter. So let's say that you're walking out of a store into the parking lot late at night. As you pass by someone, they ask you what time it is. You tell him and then keep on walking. Then you see him walking straight towards you and you get one of those feelings. You face him and say, "Back off," and then you back away. If he keeps on walking towards you and he's far enough away you say, "If you come any closer I will call the police," and you take a few steps back. The person doesn't say anything but keeps on coming closer. Then you immediately spray the person in the face. In a situation like that, you know that the person hasn't attacked you yet nor made any verbal threats, so you don't want to get into legal trouble. But at the same time, you've read in many places that that's how many assaults and even homicides begin (the person asked you a question to interview you as a victim). You also told the person to keep his distance. Would it be okay to use pepper spray in that way?

Or another situation: Let's say that you're having a verbal disagreement with someone where both sides get quite frustrated, which has happened with virtually everyone, no matter how socially skilled or nice they are. The other person brings up his fists in a way that looks like he is thinking about punching. You take some steps back and say, "If you punch me I will call the police.” He then walks towards you but never makes a verbal threat. People are often seriously hurt in situations like these and if you back away from him right when he has that body language, call him on what he may be thinking and warning him about the police, and then he comes towards you, then what? Quite a few assaults and homicides are not by complete strangers, but by acquaintances.

Not that I want to spray people, I'd rather not, but I'm trying to find that line because I know you don't want to wait until you're on the ground.

 

[bigdog21]

Dont say ill call the police. Say stay back or ill spray.By saying that you are telling them if they dont stop there actions they will be sprayed. That gives them a choice. your can should be drawn by then. looking at your statutes regarding force. In the first situation you didnt establish why yo had the fear of the person was he clinching his fists while walking toward you or other agressive body language? if not do not spray him. In the second situation you had a fear of imminent unlawful force and would be justified in spraying them. a phrase of your defense of person law is use force to stop the immminent use of unlawful force.

 

[NickBallard]

Thanks for your feedback bigdog.

In the first scenario with the guy walking straight towards you after asking you what time it is, obviously if he looks drunk, aimless, and not making eye contact with you, that's one thing. But let's say that he is starring at you in a constant way as he walks towards you? You tell him to back off, and he's close enough to hear. You back away. He keeps on coming towards you with a constant stare. You tell him that you'll call the police, but he keeps on coming right at you. What do you do then? Wouldn't most people be very nervous in a situation like that if the person's a stranger? Now let's say that he's walking faster?

Warning them is another thing that I am trying to figure out. Last night I was doing research about pepper spray. A few say to pull out your pepper spray and threaten to use it. Quite a few say to not threaten with pepper spray, but to tell the person to stay away, then back away from the person, all while having your hand on your pepper spray ready to use it, but not pulling it out until the second you're going to spray. They say that if you threaten with pepper spray and the other person keeps on advancing, the person will often turn his head and close his eyes as you spray, and that there's been quite a few times when the other person just pulled out a knife or a gun, and that a citizen in self-defense doesn't have the backup like police do. Also, they said that if the assailant doesn't expect the pepper spray, the more effective the pepper spray will be psychologically. That's one thing I was wondering about. You want the pepper spray to be effective if you have to use it, but you don't want a lawyer to have another reason to attack you. That's why I was wondering about bringing up "calling the police." Saying "stay away" doesn't sound like a serious warning to me, and "leave me alone" may make some assailants feel like they have power, but "stay away or else I'll call the police" may sound more serious. I'm not sure. I was just thinking out loud.

 

[bigdog21]

im a private security officer and have deployed pepper spray many times. I am also certified by Mace Security International in the use of pepper spray. In the case you describe most people who are going to attack you dont care about the police. when you say ill call the police their answer will usually be go ahead or i dont give a f***., and still attack you. By yelling get back or ill spray and having the canister in hand you are telling people around you you are going to deploy OC. that way they cant sue you if you happen to get it on them because youve warned them. Also yes they may turn theyre head away thats why you need to find a training class they will show you spraying techniques, when you can spray etc. Pepper spray doesnt disable an attacker.It distracts them so you can get away. Also do you know how many seconds it takes a person to cover 21 feet in under 3 seconds. So while you are getting your spray out of your holster if not unholstered when you are telling him to get back the attacker will be on top of you.Like I said look for an Oc training class, alot of gun stores offer courses like that. BTW when i got sprayed in certification we closed our eyes but them when told to open them the spray dripped right in, closing you eyes doesnt help because the attacker will have to open his eyes again to continue attacking you. then let the burn begin,

 

[NickBallard]

Wouldn't saying "Back off or I'll call the police" separate those who aren't planning on attacking from those who are, so that you'll know if you should spray? Wouldn't they also be acknowledging that they're a criminal by advancing on you after you say that, or at least the jury would think, "Why did that guy keep on advancing after being told that"? If they do get deterred by being shown pepper spray, wouldn't they then find another victim because they're not the type who listens to someone who says "back off", so you might as well catch the criminal? Not that I doubt you received good training. The reason I ask is one time saying that diffused a situation for me. A lot of people saw a guy as aggressive and he pulled out his fists when he was yelling at me. I called him on it and warned him that if he punched me I would call the police. I then backed up quite a bit. The guy left me alone and later apologized. I didn't have pepper spray back then, but it would have told me if he was serious or not if he decided to still come at me.

I was thinking about taking a pepper spray course. Are there different types of training courses that non-LEO's can take? Are some better than others? Do police usually offer some to civilians?