Tiered pressure ranges and modern specs

[AJC1]

The easiest example of tiered loads is 45-70. Three easy to understand levels depending on the strength of the action, and the materials used to make it. The second example well known is 45 colt with standard and ruger only loads. The 6.5×55 also has two levels in old military, and modern with the ammunition of modern labeled "SE" . Is there any modern update to the 7x57? I'm also quite curious how the 280AI gets another 5k on the Samii limit....

 

[LoonWulf]

Nosler did the spec'ing on the 280AI. No concerns of blowing up older guns, tho from my understanding they changed the specs a bit on the chamber and there can be issues with old/new, saami/not saami 280AI chambers.

If your a hand loader you can load anything anyway you please, but you do have to be cognizant of what your doing or you could cause some serious damage.

As to actual higher pressure Factory loads, im not aware of any +p 7x57 ammo, tho Id guess euro spec stuff will likely be a little hotter than what we get here.

 

[mcb]

Also remember CIP pressure testing procedures and equipment is rather different than SAAMI and accounts for a portion of the difference you see in the max pressure spec.

 

[Remington1911]

Nosler did the spec'ing on the 280AI. No concerns of blowing up older guns, tho from my understanding they changed the specs a bit on the chamber and there can be issues with old/new, saami/not saami 280AI chambers.

If your a hand loader you can load anything anyway you please, but you do have to be cognizant of what your doing or you could cause some serious damage.

As to actual higher pressure Factory loads, im not aware of any +p 7x57 ammo, tho Id guess euro spec stuff will likely be a little hotter than what we get here.

I agree, Really IMHO if you are playing with older things like old 7mm mausers you do yourself such a favor with hand loading. You then have total control of the entire process. I think if you are shooting modern things like the Ruger wheel guns, or the Marlin levers that can take "hotter" rounds again you have control over just how hot you want them to be.

 

[mcb]

Shenanigans like 38 Super and 38/44 and similar back in the 20's and 30's is at least somewhat responsible for SAAMI becoming as influential on the industry as it is. Given that history I am always surprised how much SAAMI turns a blind eye to Ruger only 45 Colt and Marlin only 45/70 etc. I am not saying those are unsafe in the right guns just that it create a potentially dangerous situation in the wrong guns and that (setting 300 BO to the side for the moment, or maybe it is a similar symptom) is something SAAMI had done a pretty good job of not letting happen.

 

[AJC1]

Shenanigans like 38 Super and 38/44 and similar back in the 20's and 30's is at least somewhat responsible for SAAMI becoming as influential on the industry as it is. Given that history I am always surprised how much SAAMI turns a blind eye to Ruger only 45 Colt and Marlin only 45/70 etc. I am not saying those are unsafe in the right guns just that it create a potentially dangerous situation in the wrong guns and that (setting 300 BO to the side for the moment, or maybe it is a similar symptom) is something SAAMI had done a pretty good job of not letting happen.

Ruger #1 loads in a trapdoor would be scary as hell and you may not get rapid delisassembly on the first round but that is not a game of chance I'd be playing. I believe most factory loads are trapdoor spec, with boutique stuff like Buffalo bore providing level 2 lever spec offerings. I don't believe any company provides ruger #1 loads for sale.

 

[Charlie98]

Given that history I am always surprised how much SAAMI turns a blind eye to Ruger only 45 Colt and Marlin only 45/70 etc.

It's interesting to note, however, that there is commercially published data for those rounds. I would have to read those sections again to see if they mention anything about it not being SAAMI data, or words to that effect.

I don't believe any company provides ruger #1 loads for sale.

Interesting question... and one I never considered. Same-same with Magnum-level .45 Colt loads. I just think the potential for injury (and a lawsuit) is too great.

FWIW, after a brief foray into 'modern lever-action' loads in my Marlin 1895... I'm happy as a pig in slop back at Trapdoor-level loads in my 1885...

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

To the OP's original list, add the 32-20 which has traditionally been loaded to different tiers for pistol and rifle use. I don't think this was done with ammunition for the 44-40 and 38-40, but I don't know for a fact.

Another much more obscure tiered load is the 8x58R Danish cartridge, which was loaded hotter for the Krag-Jorgensen bolt actions and various machine guns than for the Swedish smokeless rolling block conversions.

There are plenty of cartridges still around that started life back in the black powder era, and hence have problematic legacy firearms to consider in the smokeless ammunition era. The list is quite long for rifle cartridges, including stalwarts like the .38-55, .32-40 and so forth. Pretty much handloading problems nowadays.

 

[.38 Special]

The .44 Special fits the bill perfectly, and was getting hot rodded almost from the start. Elmer Keith himself wrote that the cartridge "has been sadly underloaded" by the factories "for no earthly reason". I'm not a fan of the truly hot loads promoted by Keith, but between them, the "Skeeter" load, and the standard loads, it's another "three tier" cartridge.

 

[Jim Watson]

To the OP's original list, add the 32-20 which has traditionally been loaded to different tiers for pistol and rifle use. I don't think this was done with ammunition for the 44-40 and 38-40, but I don't know for a fact.

Yes, they were. Likely the .38 and .44 WCF HV loads did not return after WWII.

I think the .32 WCF was the last one with a HV load offered as late as 1960. Every gunzine article for the past 60 years has warned against shooting High Velocity, High Speed, 1892 ammo in a revolver, long after it was discontinued. Fear of old stock? Increasing word count?

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

The .44 Special fits the bill perfectly, and was getting hot rodded almost from the start. Elmer Keith himself wrote that the cartridge "has been sadly underloaded" by the factories "for no earthly reason". I'm not a fan of the truly hot loads promoted by Keith, but between them, the "Skeeter" load, and the standard loads, it's another "three tier" cartridge.

These days, the Charter Bulldog is another reason for continued 'tiering' of .44 Special ammo -- those little guns really hurt with heavy bullets!

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

One cartridge that might have benefitted from a 'tiered' loading at one time was the .45 ACP, specifically for use in shaved .455 Webley top-break revolvers. Perhaps 100K of these (all marks) were imported postwar and altered to take moon clipped .45 ACP.

The pressure difference between .455 Webley and .45 ACP is 8K PSI, and top-breaks aren't the strongest design to begin with.

 

[Speedo66]

To the OP's original list, add the 32-20 which has traditionally been loaded to different tiers for pistol and rifle use. I don't think this was done with ammunition for the 44-40 and 38-40, but I don't know for a fact.

The original gun chambered for .44-40 was the relatively weak 1873 Winchester rifle. When the stronger 1892 Winchester rifle came out, more powerful ammo was developed for it in the same caliber, with the admonition it was to be used only in the '92.

After '73 rifles grenaded from the stronger ammo despite the warnings, it was removed from the market.

 

[Varminterror]

There’s a relatively strong argument that any .473” boltface (standard) cartridge chambered in a rifle which is also offered in .532” boltface (magnum) cartridges could also be loaded to 65kpsi. This comparison shows a THINNER barrel tenon could handle greater pressure, and obviously the action can handle considerably greater bolt thrust - so if the action and barrel can tolerate 64-5kpsi with 300win mag, why wouldn’t it tolerate the same for .30-06 cases? Are we really to believe a short action Rem 700, Ruger M77, or Win 70 can handle 62kpsi from 308win, but not more than 60kpsi from the 30-06 in a long action… which… naturally… tolerates 64kpsi from 300wm, with a 26% LARGER bolt face… 300wm is ~35% greater bolt thrust in the same action as a 30-06… pretty clear to see there’s more room above the 1906 pressure standard of the Springfield round. The same paradigm applies for these Mauser cartridges - there’s no reason to believe a Rem 700 long action in 7x57 has to be loaded to lower pressure than a 7-08rem in a short action 700 - or frankly, no reason it has to be loaded lower than max pressure for a magnum standard. Brass life in older case designs may be terrible but guys have done it long enough to provide empirical evidence that the cases won’t suffer catastrophic failures or cause sticky extraction just for increasing to 60kpsi standards in these stronger actions.

32 H&R has been another which guys seem to hotrod pretty heavily in modern Rugers. Guys have done pretty impressive stuff with some older black powder cartridges in modern actions as well, 38-55, 45-90/110, etc. Even 30-30 gets a pretty significant shot in the arm when chambered in a stronger action and loaded heavily.

460 Rowland is another example of a 45acp pressure standard, as is .353 Casull above the 357mag in 5 shot revolvers. I suppose “Casull level” 45 Colt loads could be considered Tier 4 of Ruger Only loads, only to be fired in 454 Casull Rugers - not sure the point, but it’s technically apt.

Maybe following a different turn - considerably more powder can be loaded into certain cartridges if the SAAMI max coal is ignored for firearms which allow such. For example, a guy can get enough H110 into a 44mag case to grossly exceed book maximum pressures if bullets are loaded to cylinder length in Ruger Super Blackhawks and Super Redhawks, greater than 10% increase in charge weight - and anecdotally, delivering lower maximum pressure than book maximum loads seated to the suggested COAL’s. This gets 300grn bullets well up over 1300fps, or even over 1400fps in 7.5” revolvers - maybe not raising a full level, but certainly vaulted ceilings above the typical 44mag performance.

So there are a lot of animals out there which have benefited from modern actions and modern understanding of pressure standards and firearms design - compared to what was “guarantee-able as safe in all actions designed 50-100+ years ago.”

 

[jmr40]

The same argument can be made with 270 which has always been 65,000 PSI while the 30-06 was limited to 60,000 PSI.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

The same argument can be made with 270 which has always been 65,000 PSI while the 30-06 was limited to 60,000 PSI.

Speaking of which, the US 30-06 M2 cartridge was deliberately downloaded from M1 specifications due to concerns about the latter exceeding the safety specifications at many military firing ranges. The stated maximum range of the M1 cartridge out of the M1903 was 5,500 yards vs. 3,500 yards for M2 ball (FM 23-10 1943, p 39.)

 

[jmr40]

I have no idea what the pressures were/are, but do know that 30-06 speeds over the years have increased dramatically. During WW-1 a 150 gr bullet at 2700 fps was standard. By WW-2 that was 2800 fps. Today's commercial factory loads are listed at 2900-3100 fps, although many claim those numbers are optimistic.

I have chronographed some 308 and 30-06 Hornady Superformance loads. The 308 loads were pretty close to the advertised speeds. Certainly, faster than I think I could safely get with handloads. But the 30-06 loads were slower than advertised. But that is a small sample

I've hit 3050 fps with 30-06 handloads and 150's.

 

[Varminterror]

Agreed. Most 150grn factory fodder I have chronographed (been a few years now, to be honest) have rarely exceeded 2950 from a 24” barrel. Pretty easy to add 100fps to that with handloads.

 

[tmd16556]

I know 257 Roberts has two pressure levels. With the same case as a 7x57 Mauser I suspect it gives a starting point to work with. I know those were in deference to older Mausers and lever action rifles. My 257 is built on a Springfield 1903 action so I figure it can handle the higher pressures (and magazine length isn’t a problem), but there also isn’t much reason to push the boundaries. Can I push a 85 year old rifle harder? Sure, but I also have a 30-06 that can do that too.
So the moral of the story here is, as always at THR, when in doubt, you do need another rifle.

 

[Remington1911]

I have no idea what the pressures were/are, but do know that 30-06 speeds over the years have increased dramatically. During WW-1 a 150 gr bullet at 2700 fps was standard. By WW-2 that was 2800 fps. Today's commercial factory loads are listed at 2900-3100 fps, although many claim those numbers are optimistic.

I have chronographed some 308 and 30-06 Hornady Superformance loads. The 308 loads were pretty close to the advertised speeds. Certainly, faster than I think I could safely get with handloads. But the 30-06 loads were slower than advertised. But that is a small sample

I've hit 3050 fps with 30-06 handloads and 150's.

And this all brings us back to hand loading again, I just ran my old springfield last weekend. Stupid batteries in the chrono was dead, but I wanted to shoot so did it anyway. On paper mine are to mosey down to the target in the low 2000's, IIRC. I don't want them hot in that old gun.

Really I know I sing about reloading often, but without it I doubt I would be in this "gun" hobby.

 

[Laphroaig]

I guess my 30-06 loads are tiered.

I load mild 150/155 gr. bullets for my 1903 and M1917 rifles. A 155 Amax leaves my 26" barreled M1917 at 2396 fps. I do it as much for me (reduced recoil) as my rifles.

My 168 HPBT Garand ammo was chronoed at 2503 fps. Factory Hornady 168 Amax Garand ammo gave 2641 fps in the same rifle.

My 165 gr. hunting ammo is a little hotter I think, but I've never shot it over my chrono. Different powder, bullet, and rifle.

 

[Slamfire]

I am unaware of any tiered loads or recommendations for European firearms. And the reason is: Proof Testing. The European proof test program was specifically designed to remove old, unsafe firearms. That is why American's notice Norma 8 mm Mauser ammunition is a lot hotter than American made 8mm Mauser. Europeans have weeded out old, worn out military actions at the Proof House.

I only know a little bit about European proof testing. It used to be that a firearm or barrel could be not be transferred to a different person without undergoing proof. And from I read, the Proof Houses check dimensions, probably mechanical condition. If the firearm fails, at one time the firearms were chopped up. That might have changed, I read in a thread where the seller would be stuck with a rejected firearm or barrel.

The European system assumes the buyer is ignorant and needs to be protected, the American system assumes the buyer is an expert and knows everything.

You think American car inspection is bad, go to Germany. The Germans thoroughly check out your vehicle every year, inspectors have check sheets, they will require replacement of an emergency brake cable with external rust. If one tire needs replacing, you have to replace all tires, and you have to buy new German tires. No retreads, or crappy American tires. German highways do not have the tons upon tons of retread tire debris that American roads have. You drive into inspection, and you will come out with a list of things that need fixing. If your vehicle breaks down on the Autoban, you will be fined, no hugs, kisses or love for those with unreliable vehicles.

 

[Charlie98]

You think American car inspection is bad, go to Germany. The Germans thoroughly check out your vehicle every year, inspectors have check sheets, they will require replacement of an emergency brake cable with external rust. If one tire needs replacing, you have to replace all tires, and you have to buy new German tires. No retreads, or crappy American tires. German highways do not have the tons upon tons of retread tire debris that American roads have. You drive into inspection, and you will come out with a list of things that need fixing. If your vehicle breaks down on the Autoban, you will be fined, no hugs, kisses or love for those with unreliable vehicles.

Most American state inspections are not safety inspections... they are revenue generators, that's all. Every once in a while you will find a zealous inspector, but by and large, it's a rubber stamp and off you go.

 

[Speedo66]

I am unaware of any tiered loads or recommendations for European firearms. And the reason is: Proof Testing. The European proof test program was specifically designed to remove old, unsafe firearms. That is why American's notice Norma 8 mm Mauser ammunition is a lot hotter than American made 8mm Mauser. Europeans have weeded out old, worn out military actions at the Proof House.

I only know a little bit about European proof testing. It used to be that a firearm or barrel could be not be transferred to a different person without undergoing proof. And from I read, the Proof Houses check dimensions, probably mechanical condition. If the firearm fails, at one time the firearms were chopped up. That might have changed, I read in a thread where the seller would be stuck with a rejected firearm or barrel.

The European system assumes the buyer is ignorant and needs to be protected, the American system assumes the buyer is an expert and knows everything.

You think American car inspection is bad, go to Germany. The Germans thoroughly check out your vehicle every year, inspectors have check sheets, they will require replacement of an emergency brake cable with external rust. If one tire needs replacing, you have to replace all tires, and you have to buy new German tires. No retreads, or crappy American tires. German highways do not have the tons upon tons of retread tire debris that American roads have. You drive into inspection, and you will come out with a list of things that need fixing. If your vehicle breaks down on the Autoban, you will be fined, no hugs, kisses or love for those with unreliable vehicles.

From what I remember my Swedish father in law saying, a similar situation there with inspections. If they found anything wrong, the car had to be towed to a repair place, then towed back for re-inspection.

 

[Jim Watson]

I am unaware of any tiered loads or recommendations for European firearms. And the reason is: Proof Testing. The European proof test program was specifically designed to remove old, unsafe firearms. That is why American's notice Norma 8 mm Mauser ammunition is a lot hotter than American made 8mm Mauser. Europeans have weeded out old, worn out military actions at the Proof House.

CIP does list separate specifications for 8x57 I and 8x57 IS. But the chamber pressures and proof pressures are only slightly lower for the old .318" bullet version.
https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/en/tdcc_public?page=4&cartridge_type_id=1

US SAAMI "8mm Mauser" is the ca 1920 8mm Remington Special, greatly underloaded for 1888s very early 1898s, and commercial guns like Haenel with 1888 type actions. I would not have thought there were so many being sold here as to frighten US ammunition companies. One conspiracy theory is that what they really meant to do was avoid showing the true capability of a funny furrin rifle and possibly hurting sales of domestic products.