Timing an 1860 Colt

[Johnm1]

I think I have pondered enough. I do not see how, with the parts that I have, both new and existing, I can change the sequence/timing to get a true Colt 3 click action. The fact is I reach full cock before the bolt Rises. I would need a new hammer and Trigger that delayed the full cock arrangement until much later in the hammer travel. I'm not sure the original reproductions or the replacement parts geometry will allow that. Plus I'd need a bolt that has legs one third longer then what I have. I believe I will have to live with the way the action works right now. Whether it's three clicks or four clicks the sequence is the same. Sometimes the third and fourth click happen at the same time but the sequence is as follows. Half-cock, full cock, bolt rise, then bolt into the Notch. I have confirmed using lamp black that the bolt Rises in the last portion of the ramp. I understand it should rise in the middle of the ramp but as long as I'm hitting on the ramp and not peening the other side of the notch, I don't think I'm doing any damage.

Below you can see that the bolt contacts the very end of the ramp before it slips into the notch.



I'd like your opinion if that is the right choice or if I'm being impatient.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

The bolt leg that rises over the hammer cam is a tad too long, the bolt is dropping late. Shorten the leg a small amount at a time until it drops into the beginning of the lead in cut. The way it's timed now there's a good chance for throw by or over travel of the cylinder if the gun is cocked quickly. The three click thing should be half cock, first click, second click, bolt drop, third should be cylinder lockup, and full cock at the same time. Hope this helps, if you need more guidance feel free to give me a call.

 

[Johnm1]

The bolt leg that rises over the hammer cam is a tad too long, the bolt is dropping late. Shorten the leg a small amount at a time until it drops into the beginning of the lead in cut. The way it's timed now there's a good chance for throw by or over travel of the cylinder if the gun is cocked quickly. The three click thing should be half cock, first click, second click, bolt drop, third should be cylinder lockup, and full cock at the same time. Hope this helps, if you need more guidance feel free to give me a call.

That is how I had it figured. I’ll check again when I get home but my suspicion is that if I shorten the bolt leg get the bolt drop to happen before reaching the full cock notch it will happen well before the lead in cut. And I figure that is a function of the location of the full cock notch on the hammer in this reproduction. I can do as you say and shorten bolt leg until it drops in the lead in but I suspect it will still happen after reaching the full cock notch. I’ll have to look again. The full cock and bolt drop are so close together that they often sound like one click.

I understand the concern about throw by but I have seen no signs of that in my testing. Though I can see that becoming an issue in the future if wear comes into play. I’m actually more concerned with accidentally not cocking it enough to index they cylinder. And being it has already reached the full cock notch, being able to pull the trigger when the cylinder hasn’t reached its index point and isn’t locked by the bolt.

 

[Johnm1]

I shortened the bolt leg and now the bolt drops in about the middle of the lead in. Its kinda hard to see as apparently only a small portion of the bolt contacts the cylinder but all of the cylinders are approximately the same.

This is the best picture I can muster. The top of the bolt is flat at this point so all we see are the two points of contact with the concave surface of the lead in. I’ll have to round off the top of the bolt a little.the bolt drop appears to be in the correct location on the lead in.




This picture is with the hammer at full cock. Notice how much rotation there is left to turn. Although I can trim a little more and get the bolt to drop closer to the beginning of the lead in, there will still be rotation needed after full cock to index the cylinder.

 

[Johnm1]

I ponder further. I am still using the original pawl and I 'assume' that it is the correct length because it does put the cylinder in the correct position. It accomplishes this 'position' because it is just tall enough to reach at the full hammer draw. In my mind if it were any longer (taller) it would over rotate the cylinder or bind between the pawl and bolt in the notch. But, is there a specific 'shape' of the top of the hand that would allow a taller pawl to rotate the cylinder to the correct position sooner and by way of a curve on the top of the pawl and a shorter protrusion into the cylinder, allow the pawl to stop moving up but rotate and continue to move towards the cylinder for the remainder of the hammer draw?

I do possess a replacement pawl that is over sized. And I wonder if a taller pawl that rotates the cylinder sooner would allow me to drop the bolt sooner and still hit the lead in?

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

You're getting closer on this one, now its a matter of fitting the hand to get full rotation and cylinder/ full cock lockup at the same time. Quick question, are you fitting these parts with bolt guide in place?

 

[Johnm1]

Yes, the bolt guide is in place. So it is possible to time the hand so it rotates the cylinder 'sooner'? The timing of the bolt release was counter intuitive. Making the new hand 'taller' than what I have in the original without over rotating the cylinder is also counter intuitive. I'll give it a try.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

It's gonna be a lot of remove a small amount and reassemble, remove some more, check fit and so on. Be patient, go slow, you'll get there. The frustrating part is having the action locked up while fitting the hand. Usually it's a sign that the hand is still too long.

 

[Johnm1]

It's gonna be a lot of remove a small amount and reassemble, remove some more, check fit and so on. Be patient, go slow, you'll get there. The frustrating part is having the action locked up while fitting the hand. Usually it's a sign that the hand is still too long.

It may be Sunday or possibly next weekend. Today is the first day of bow season.

 

[Johnm1]

I think I have said this before, but I sure am glad I don't need to make a living off of my Gunsmithing skills or lack thereof. This gun would be worth $3,000 or I would be working for $0.48 an hour.

No matter what I did with the original parts I always ended up with clicks that were out of order. I was able minimize the clicks to 3 but they were half-cock, full cock, bolt rise/final rotation. Fortunately the new Hammer has a slightly different geometry. Using the new hammer, the new hand, and the new Bolt all fitted to each other I was able to achieve three Clicks in the correct order this evening. It sounds great.

Unfortunately what timing I did to raise the bolt in the lead was lost when I replaced the parts. At this point I am not sure how I am going to delay the bolt rise a little bit as it now Rises just before the lead. I have to think that one through. It seems to me the only way I can accomplish that is if the bolt has longer legs and I don't know how to stretch them. Can you peen hardened steel and make it grow a little bit?

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Don't try to peen the bolt legs, they will break. I'm not real clear on where the bolt is dropping. Is it before the lead in cut or after the beginning of the lead in cut?

 

[Johnm1]

Don't try to peen the bolt legs, they will break. I'm not real clear on where the bolt is dropping. Is it before the lead in cut or after the beginning of the lead in cut?

Before the lead in cut by about the width of the bolt head.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Leave it, it's gonna work just fine, next thing is getting the cylinder locked up at the same time the hammer gets to full cock.

 

[Johnm1]

Leave it, it's gonna work just fine, next thing is getting the cylinder locked up at the same time the hammer gets to full cock.

and I suspect I will need a new hand in order to do that. It appears I shortened this one just a tad too much.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

John you can bring it to me and we can sit down and fix this thing, I hate to see you buy another hand when we can build this one back up and re fit it. Just a thought.

 

[Johnm1]

I’m not sure how this happened but I’m glad it did. After spending time with @Jackrabbit1957 this past weekend getting the timing correct and the clicks in the right order, the bolt drop into the cylinder notches seemed to correct itself. I need to shape the bolt head so contact is a bit more even, but it’s dropping in the correct location.

 

[Johnm1]

While visiting @Jackrabbit1957 a couple of weekends ago we not only timed the 1860 right but he took the time to address the short arbor. Adjustments were minimal and we had to grind down the smallest washer he had and ended up with a 0.006” gap.

Today I built up the end of the arbor with nickel silver and fitted it to 0.004”. Now I don’t have to worry about losing the washer.

Expensive to use rig, but I’m not a welder and can manage this MAPP Gas welder for small jobs. The expensive part is the oxygen. It is low pressure and is only sold in 4 oz bottles for anywhere between $9 and $11. And it doesn’t last but for 8-10 minutes of operation. But I have used it successfully for really small projects.



Here is what I started with.



and here is what I ended with


I think I’ll polish it and maybe get down to 0.003”.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Looks really good John. Be careful how much you polish, don't want to have to start over. Will be interesting to see how the brass frame holds up once everything is tuned and fitted, seems no one is going to the trouble of properly setting up a brasser....just saying.

 

[Johnm1]

seems no one is going to the trouble of properly setting up a brasser....just saying.

I wouldn't have selected a brass frame for a project. This one started as a junker and it just evolved. I'm going to remake the front sight. Same style but im going to fit it to shoot point of aim with a reduced load at 25 yards. I'm thinking about 20 grains of 3F. We'll see how tall that ends up being and how it works for both round ball and conicals/paper cartridges.

This one will never be a competition gun. If it works out, it will be a looker that can and will shoot. Thats why I didn't want to do any of the competition upgrades.

 

[Johnm1]

don't want to have to start over

Actually, I had to do it twice. One to many swipes with the file when I thought I had a lot yet to remove. Curved surfaces are kinda weird to file on. Even though I was using lamp black on every try, I thought I had to remove a lot from the 'top' surface when I only needed to remove a little on the curved side.

I did polish it with 400 grit sand paper inside of one of the curved sanding blocks and the gap is now very tight with the wedge driven all the way in.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I hear ya, been in the same shoes when I was threading the arbor and fitting a machine screw for the correction.