Titanium in firearms...

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Davo

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I read an article today in shooting times that mentions taurus's TI revolvers. The article stated that TI is stronger than steel, but weighs less than 2/3 of steel. Its also corrosion resistant.
Is this the next big thing in firearms (kinda like stainless a few years back)?
Can autoloaders be made in TI? Is it better than aluminum alloy? It seems like a compact .22 revolver, or a featherweight single shot .22 would be a great backpackers gun. A .357 would be great also.
There is already some backpacking gear made of TI (mess kits,etc), but they are incredibly expensive.
 
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Nope, Titanium isn't stronger than steel. Titanium also gulls fairly easily. Perfect for making light weight revolvers, but really no good for autoloaders.
 
The SV Tiki is the only titanium auto I know of. One problem with making a titanium auto would be the resulting loss of weight in the slide which would throw the timing off. That wouldn't be a problem for a gun that was built around the titanium but rather a problem in converting an existing design.
 
Titanium falls right between steel and aluminum. It has a higher strength-to-weight ratio so you can technically say it is stronger than steel by weight but currently nothing is as flexible as the numerous types of steel alloys out there (plus wear characteristics, hardening, engineering properties, etc). It's best properties besides gram counting is being relatively non-reactive and hard to corrode.

It only has a fabled reputation because it is difficult to purify and required new industry to commercialize it. Russia released a lot of titanium stock and the industry is there now so it will (and has) become much more widespread the next several decades. Aluminum (like titanium now) used to be ultra expensive and took insane amounts of electrical energy to purify through an electrolytic arc furnace method. Once the industry was established and methods refined, it gained popularity and prices dropped (and available on everything now)

Titanium isn't that great to machine either, sparks like mad, is easily ignited (the chips), and it has poor thermal conductivity also. It's not so much specialized tooling, but refining feed rates (low) because of it's crappy thermal conductivity.
 
Titanium's density is 57.4% that of steel.

As for the strengths, they are very similar, at least from a point of view of yield and ultimate stress, elasticity is actually surprisingly simlar as well, with Titanium being a little less elastic.

From Table H-3 of the 6th edition of Mechanics of Materials by James M. Gere, Professor Emeritus, Stanford University

table.jpg
 
This is a minor issue for most people but one that needs to be considered. The lighter you make a firearm the greater the recoil for a given ammunition.

A light gun is great for carry but can be miserable to practice with if you don't like the recoil. This may seem like a wimpy comment but in previous threads people have complained that even a 380 auto has "sharp" recoil that makes the gun unpleasant to shoot. Some people are recoil sensitive. A 22 in titanium may be fun but a 357 is likely to be a handful and if you can't practice with the gun, and hence can't hit anything, what is the point in carrying it?

Additionally there is the question of balance. This can be designed correctly in a new gun but may not work in a re-work of a present model. Since I do not want to cause a firestorm by naming someone's favorite pistol (there is no accounting for taste) there is one auto that was so badly unbalanced after it was built with a polymer frame it was a disaster.
 
Titanium is used in frames mainly, who's weight affects recoil much less than that of the slide or barrel. Still a concern, but it's not as simple as how much the pistol weighs, it has a lot to do with how said weight is distributed.
 
I've always sort of seen titanium as the "almost as light as aluminum and almost as strong as steel" metal. Sort of a give and take but not really acceling at either. Not sure if that is really correct, but no one seems to argue with me when I say it.

That said, I love the stuff. Won't buy a watch in any other material. Have not tried it in a gun yet though.

I think its used in fairly expensive knives as well... from what I understand they are only good for slicing not strong enough for much else.
 
Well , It might be an idea to replace some internal parts with TI ,I can think of my AR-15s trigger disconnect, If Ti is better at handling stress better then steel it might be useful for high wear parts.
First post so if I sound moronic, I am truly sorry.
 
Titanium only excels in several properties of the many out there that determine it's application in an engineering use. You can treat proper steel alloys to higher hardnesses than titanium. That is why titanium knives aren't popular except in highly specific situations (dive knives, etc).

Titanium doesn't make a good wear material. You don't really see titanium bearings and sleeves. A pound of titanium and a pound of steel both weigh the same, but since titanium is LIGHTER, the pound of titanium will be much larger in volume than the steel. If you make a steel part and titanium part of the same actual volume, the steel one is stronger. To get a titanium part of equal strength, it'll be physically larger because of it's properties of being lighter.

Here is a nice article done by Sword Forums on titanium hype. Its a useful metal and great for many applications, but not unobtainium. http://swordforum.com/metallurgy/titanium.html
 
The Smith & Wesson Scandium Commander is made of Titanium with a wee bit of Scandium in it. The pistol is getting rave reviews. I have one and it is my primary carry gun. The Scandium/titanium alloy supposedly makes the titanium stronger and less likely to break. Mine is Bobtailed now and is a gorgeous gun. You can see it at www.ontargetcgw.com , select "1911 Gallery" and then "Smith & Wesson Bobtail."

Edit for misinformation
Scandium is an aluminum/scandium alloy, no titanium in it.
Brian W
 
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Titanium doesn't make a good wear material. You don't really see titanium bearings and sleeves. A pound of titanium and a pound of steel both weigh the same, but since titanium is LIGHTER, the pound of titanium will be much larger in volume than the steel. If you make a steel part and titanium part of the same actual volume, the steel one is stronger. To get a titanium part of equal strength, it'll be physically larger because of it's properties of being lighter.
It depends on the heat treatment, remember that the harder it is, the less it can be used for moving parts that have to absorb energy (read slides and frames).

Look at the yield and ultimate stresses I posed and say that you need more material with Titanium. That might be general, but looking up 4340 (the stuff that caspian uses) and comparing that to high strength Ti with 10% Vandium, we see that the yield stresses are 10 ksi off, 170 compared to 160. That isn't anwhere close to failing on a properly designed part. It really isn't much different in stregth. Ok?
 
Methinks titanium is just the latest way of separating the shooter who buys from "advertising hype" from his hard-earned pennies.

If you want to go tough go stainless. If you think stainless is heavy get more exercise. If you want to shoot well use the money you save from not buying titanium to buy more practice ammo.

OLD JOKE.

Sports freak runs into the bar in his sports gear carrying his raquet during TGIF. "Anybody want to play squash?"

Drinker, without looking up. "If you want more exercise get a heavier glass".
 
One of the most important factors in choosing a carry gun - for me anyway - is weight. Not because I can't handle a few more ounces but because the weapon tends to be less noticeable and *moves* less the lighter it is.
For example, my Taurus 450 is a bit larger than my Glock 27 but weighs a few ounces less unloaded (even less in comparison loaded) but carries on my ankle much easier than the Glock. The Taurus also has yet to show any signs of corrosion (after 10 years or so) even though I rarely oil it and carry it on my ankle for every waking moment of the day.

Even though the Taurus is only 17 oz or so and has a 2" barrel, the recoil is manageable because of the grips and the factory porting. Even with my 260gr LSWC handloads (loaded to about 850 fps) I can put all five .45 LC bullets on the paper plate in two seconds or less at seven yards. I'm sure a more accomplished revo man could do much better.
The only gripe I have about Titanium is that the gun doesn't feel quite as *smooth* as steel does, at least until you put a few hundred rounds through it, or maybe it's just a matter of getting used to it.
Just my experience...

Biker
 
The Smith & Wesson Scandium Commander is made of Titanium with a wee bit of Scandium in it

Braak! Wrong answer. "Scandium" S&Ws are aluminum with a little scandium to refine the grain structure and increase tensile strength.

I wish other makers would go that way. Titanium is heavier and harder to machine than about any aluminum alloy. Probably more expensive than even scandium-aluminum alloy if there were enough competition in the market.

Titanium guns are going to be scarcer on the market, Ruger/Pine Tree has lost so much golf club business to the Communist Chinese that they are abandoning the titanium casting business, which is where Caspian got their titanium 1911 frame blanks.
 
I carry a Taurus 444 Ultralite when I guide fishing in Alaska. Its nice because when I strap on my chest rig, it virtually disappears. There is no weight to speak of and that makes it nice. I used to carry an all steel .44 and it weighed too damn much.
That said, when I load the 444 with bear loads, it hurts like hell. The recoil pad in the grip can only compensate so much for the excessive recoil. This hurts my accuracy, but you learn to adjust.
Titanium is now and will always be a compromise. You can argue the strength to weight/size ratio all day long, but the fact remains that until something else comes along that weighs this little, Titanium is still going to be used.
My advise? Don't buy anything in Titanium (more specifically, larger calibers) that you need to be super accurate with. I can hit a grizzly bear head size target out to about 15 yards with the 444 and 300 gr. hard cast bullets, but then again I don't need six shots in the ten-ring, just minute-of-grizzly bear accuracy.
 
The big problem with Ti is the expense - it's gone way up already and is going to cost more and more as China and India buy it all up.

As to what VAR said about heat treating it, I don't know much about using Ti but the stuff knifemakers use (6-4 I think) does not get harder from heat treating it. That's wht it doesn't make that great a knife blade but is great for handles.
 
Look at the yield and ultimate stresses I posed and say that you need more material with Titanium. That might be general, but looking up 4340 (the stuff that caspian uses) and comparing that to high strength Ti with 10% Vandium, we see that the yield stresses are 10 ksi off, 170 compared to 160. That isn't anwhere close to failing on a properly designed part. It really isn't much different in stregth. Ok?

Yes, both materials will not fail in something as mundane as a pistol slide because the stresses involved don't even approach maximum operational properties of the material but regardless (ignoring the host of hardened metal parts inside besides the slide and frame), the chart makes comparisons based on one unit of density of these materials, not volumetric so it defaults to the argument about volume and mass. Titanium has more volume but is stonger by mass and it meets somwhere in between and still falls below steel.

Maximum hardness, enlongation, modulus of elasticity, shearability, compressional strength, machinability, castability, etc--there are countless reasons that come into play when selecting a material. Yield/ultimate tensile strength is hardly and end-all argument for one material over another. Materials used in firearms are far from representative of what takes place in industry. AISI 4340 is a rather generic steel regardless of how Caspian advertises it. By contrast, we've been contracted to use it for mundane end-purposes like commercial adjustable table feet. It's great steel, but nothing magical because it's chosen by a high end 1911 manufactuer. Same with titanium.

It isn't unusual to have generic steel over 40-45 Rc, and alloys specifically for bearing surfaces, cutlery, and other high impact/wear purposes are easily around the 55-60Rc. Steel-based tooling (your generic HSS tool steel variants) can push to about 65Rc. For contrast, a titanium alloy like 6Al-4V can be pushed to the low 40's Rc, MUCH softer by comparison even if it is hardened to it's upper limits and titanium is more difficult to harden due to it's poor thermal properties. If titanium alloys can achieve the same hardness, they would be used in cutlery and wear applications. It isn't.

Again, I am not putting down titanium, but every metal and alloy has its purposes. As mentioned, aluminum used to be a "wonder metal" because it was incredibly difficult to produce in quantity. I'm just tired of being bombarded with titanium tennis rackets, golf clubs, and firearms promising the impossible.

The big problem with Ti is the expense - it's gone way up already and is going to cost more and more as China and India buy it all up.

All metals have gone up in price as 3rd world nations start developing their industry. Some of the exotic stuff like nickel and cobalt superalloys have really jumped up a few notches as it's not that widespread and available in quantity.
 
It seems very unlikely to me that developing third-world countries are impacting prices of 'high level' metals in the way people imagine with the known examples of steel, copper, etc.

Ti and Al have minimal utility for the basic infrastructure of a country, largely as a result of the difficulty in welding these metals. I can't remember the original source, but it was summarized very clearly to me in the following way: in the field, under nearly any condition, a worker can lay down multiple pounds per hour when welding steel. For aluminum, it's hours for a single pound.
 
Taking in all the technical statements, mis-statements, and the length of time it takes to compare properties of the various alloys of steel, stainless steel, aluminum, titanium, and having no idea what would happen of you mixed any of them with peanut butter - I sorta like my total titanium Taurus 731 !

At 13 oz's it is 23% lighter than current production model airweight 731's made with aluminum alloy frames and stainless steel barrel/cylinder. For a pocket carry gun that 4 oz's of weight reduction is significant to me. I don't care if it's stronger than some steel as long as it is strong enough for the application it's being used for. I suspect it is stronger than aluminum ,so as I see it, my total titanium 731 should be stronger overall, as well as lighter ,than the current aluminum/stainless steel version. What's not to like about that ? Plus ,better corrosion resistance if I believe what I read, and what seems to hold true on my firearm.

I think titanium has a useful place in firearm manufacturing and will continue to do so. Just my Opinion Though !
 
Interestingly enough, you see the same steel vs. aluminum vs. titanium vs. polymer discussions in another of my hobbies: bicycling. Only there the question is the optimum material from which to construct the bicycle frame. In recent years, somewhat analogous to the Glock, polymer frames, in the form of carbon fiber, are really taking off, as they have become cheaper to manufacture and the quality has improved.

I have bicycles in steel, aluminum and titanium, and it gives me a thrill to match the bicycle frame material to the frame material of whatever handgun I am carrying as I ride. When I am feeling especially weight conscious, I carry a Taurus titanium 651 on my titanium road bike! I actually keep hoping that someone, like Taurus or Kahr, will build a polymer frame single stack small 9 mm with a titanium slide, sort of the titanium equivalent of the Millennium Pro 745. To me, this would be the perfect cycling handgun and I would buy at least a couple in a heartbeat.

Also from the materials perspective, the price of titanium and carbon fiber is going up steadily as more and more of the available supplies are being bought up by the aerospace market. Boeing and Airbus, respectively, are among the largest buyers of carbon fiber and titanium in the world. Both of them have recently started vertical integration of their supply chain and have purchased or are building their own factories to make the raw carbon fiber feedstocks. Just a few miles from me, Boeing is starting to manufacture the Dreamliner, an airliner made primarily from composites such as carbon fiber, aluminum and titanium, all in the name of saving weight, decreasing maintenance and increasing fuel efficiency. They are talking about building a carbon fiber factory in this area to supply the Dreamliner.

The lack of supply is starting to affect the bicycling manufacturing community, and I wonder if it will in turn affect the firearms manufacturing community, at least from the standpoint of titanium, although improved methods of refining and the opening of the Russian ore fields have greatly increased the supply at cost-effective price points.
 
Also from the materials perspective, the price of titanium and carbon fiber is going up steadily as more and more of the available supplies are being bought up by the aerospace market. Boeing and Airbus, respectively, are among the largest buyers of carbon fiber and titanium in the world. Both of them have recently started vertical integration of their supply chain and have purchased or are building their own factories to make the raw carbon fiber feedstocks. Just a few miles from me, Boeing is starting to manufacture the Dreamliner, an airliner made primarily from composites such as carbon fiber, aluminum and titanium, all in the name of saving weight, decreasing maintenance and increasing fuel efficiency. They are talking about building a carbon fiber factory in this area to supply the Dreamliner.

We've seen a huge surge of business in aerospace like Boeing, Cessna, GCM North American Aerospace, Nordam Group, etc. Most of it is aluminum and titanium. We haven't gotten any contracts for the Dreamliner yet but 727-777/F-22 stuff somes through all the time and we're working 50-60 hours a week and still lagging behind. It's been on an upswing for the last several years and it isn't showing signs of slowing down. Good business, good paycheck, more toys :D
 
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