Titegroup unburned powder mess

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heydawg

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I load for 380. 100 grain Berry's Plated. Usually use about 2.8 grains of Titegroup out of a PK380.

So here's the deal: unburned powder. A mess of it. I'll shoot about 150-250 rounds at the range. By the time I'm done I look like a kippered beef stick. There's so many black specks on me it's sick. They get all over my arm, my face, etc.

I've heard people say that it's because the loads are underpowered. I find that a bit skeptical. The published load data for Titegroup maxes, usually, at 2.8 to 3.0 depending on the source. I tried varying COL of 2.80 down to 2.70 with no change. The brass looks crispy. It's not easy to remove the burn marks. I don't care about the brass looking crappy, since it's brass. Not a religious shrine. The burn marks are apparently a hallmark of Titegroup. That's not my concern. But it's just another finding of note.

Brass is mixed lot, Federal, RP, PMC. I sort by stamps. CCI SP primers.

The reason this puzzles me so is that I find it hard to believe that a massive load of 2.8 grains of powder cannot be effectively burned in a 3.6" barrel. Anyone else notice this?

Oh, by the way, I get a lot of copper fouling with the plated bullets. I might try cast in the future. Maybe this just isn't the powder for non jacketed.
 
I use a lot of Titegroup because it's economical, though I don't think it produces very tight groups...

The trick with this powder is to crimp a bit tighter than you normally would. So, screw your die down another 1/4 turn or so.
 
Titegroup is known to be a bit touchy. I don't use it myself but it's popular in .40 & .45.

If you're getting black scorching on the outside of the brass it means the case isn't expanding enough to seal. I see it all the time on my light target .45ACP loads.

Plated bullets generally need to be loaded to cast or lower jacketed bullet levels. The manufacturers recommend they not be pushed really hard.
 
There's something else at work to explain the burnt cases. It's been reported by many people loading many different loads in many different calibers. Depending on who you read, the max for a 100 grain jacketed bullet is 2.8 to 3.0 grains. I have used 3.1 grains and still see the burnt cases. One would expect to see some variations in the case defects as the powder charge increased. That doesn't happen.

My personal theory is that the burning characteristics of titegroup are such that you will always get burnt cases regardless of loading. I think it causes a hot and explosive detonation (even compared to other powders) that exits the brass faster than the brass can expand to occlude the chamber. So by the time the brass has expanded, the combustion by products have already begun to escape.

My other theory, more plausable, is that the burning marks have nothing to do with the brass expansion. The burn originated within the case, heating the exterior of the brass, causing a burn. So there's a full thickness burn though the metal itself, where the powder and its combustion byproducts have tattooed the metal. This more closely explains why the burn marks are not circumferential. They manifest only on 1/2 to 1/3 of the brass.

The problem is that nobody has cut into a case and plopped a high speed camera to study what actually happens.

The tighter crimp is something I've done, but not yet shot those loads.
 
Many shooter friends like Titegroup, but also admit it's hot and dirty with light loads. Check out Titegroup comments on the "Benos" forum to verify.
 
I have used Titegroup in all of my handguns except for 380. I couldn't convince myself to load such a small charge. Haven't had the problem with unburnt powder in 32-20, 38 spl or 45 lc. When I bought the powder I believed the advertising about not being position sensitive, but Walkalong showed evidence to the contrary. I will suggest that you try checking that by pointing the pistol up before firing each round and seeing if that changes the results. I'm suspecting that the powder charge is small enough and setting in the bottom of the case so it doesn't ignite.
 
Could be Tite group works best in cartridges like the 9mm or 40 where pressures are running 36K psi vs the 380 or 45acp at 20K psi?
You can`t expect brass to seal as fast at 2/3 the pressure and burn as clean.

I use it in my 45 with cast bullets, and accept that I get a bit of scorching. It doesn`t seem too bad as far as leaving unburnt powder though, and accuracy is very good IMO.
 
+1 Bullseye. There may be other powders as good (I haven't found it in my reloading experience), but there are none better. If Unique wasn't already named, I would suggest naming BE Unique.
 
Use WST it's burns cleaner than bullseye, higher loft powder and meters better too, beside being accurate. TG likes to be mid to upper loads to get a cleaner burn. But I hear all time of some one blowing up there gun with TG. You use such a small charge you can not tell by looking if it's a double.

I would guess if you tried WST you will find it hard to go back unless you think you need to save $0.003 per round. The powder is the cheapest part of the reloading components.
 
A few things. I have returned from the range. 150 rounds.

Gun is a Walther PK380. Perhaps 1000 rounds through the gun.

The results:
Used 100 grain berry plated bullet. 2.8 grain titegroup. 2.6 COL. Still messy. And in fact, perhaps a bit high pressure. Primers were a bit cratered relative to the 2.8 COL.

Same load with 2.7 COL. Still messy.

If you have heard about the PK380 jamming, that is true. However, in my case, it begins to have frequent FTEs after about 90-100 rounds. It seems that the mess created by this powder is making the gun malfunction.

Verdict: Titegroup sucks.

However, it does not suck for the reasons that people believe. It's not some gun destroying death ray that will mysteriously destroy gun, user, and all baby kittens in the world randomly. It's just gunpowder. We all have scales. I recommend their use. And about double charges. I have intentionally double charged a case, had someone hide it in a loading block, and within about .2 seconds found the offending case. This is in 380 cases. It's quite obviously fuller than other cases. Perhaps if you are loading 50 BMG or 338 Lapua with Titegroup, that becomes an issue. Might be worth thinking about other powders in those cases.

If you are worried about double charging, you need to use some other system. Good work practices will mitigate this. The best way to notice double charges is not to do them to begin with.

No, Titegroup sucks because in the 380, it's dirty, makes a lot of smoke, lots of muzzle flash, and frankly, has rather poor performance compared to other powders. It seems that 380 is best suited to, as noted W231 / HP 38, or N320 / N330, power pistol.
 
Hondo:
Titegroup gives a very mild recoil, how is BE in that regard?
Click to expand...

That's one of the reasons some competitors like Titegroup with minor PF. It's also readily available and inexpensive.
On the other hand, many competitors prefer n320 for 9mm minor loads, because it also has light flip, burns much cleaner and cooler/no muzzle flash. n320 is also expensive and not so readily available--sellers can't keep it in stock. n320 also doesn't work for faster bullet speeds.
 
Ok, sorry to do this. But here's the last word. From this forum in 2003. I remember reading this, but thought, "nah, guy is shooting a 45. This doesn't apply to me, right?"

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-24603.html

That is all I can say on the subject. I do have about 1,800 charges of Titegroup left at 2.8 grains per case. My life's goal is to shoot it all and repent for the bad decision.

Anyone comment on AA #5 in 380? I might give that a go instead. I have a pound of that I've never opened.
 
I've shot two pounds in light loads (9mm - 3.8 to 4.0 grains) in the last year simply because it's about the most economical powder around and I shoot a lot.

I didn't/don't like blackened cases, but black cases don't affect function. Again though, if you don't like black cases just increase your crimp a tad and you won't see that any more.

If you are seeing unburned powder, then something else is going on. Something to do with your reloading technique, rather than the powder.
 
If you're getting black scorching on the outside of the brass it means the case isn't expanding enough to seal.
Click to expand...

I have found Titegroup to scorch cases regardless of the pressure level, so the cases expanding well enough to seal has nothing to do with it.
 
Something to do with your reloading technique, rather than the powder.
Click to expand...

I disagree. He is loading 380 not a 9mm, that's half the pressure you're running. Pressure is the primary factor affecting combustion.
 
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