To Buy An Open Top Revolver ?

[whughett]

I own several of Colts revolvers, all reproductions, One of the 1860 Armies has a conversion cylinder also.
The photo shows a Uberti 1860 Army percussion with a Howell conversion, the top revolver in the photo.

If one likes both percussion and cased ammo it’s a good way to go.

 

[whughett]

I'd want a shorter barrel if I got a .38, because people expect you to use a 1 hand hold when shooting a cowboy gun and it would obviously be barrel heavy

I must disappoint the heck out of people then, I own and shoot something like 20 different reproduction single action “Cowboy guns”. I couldn’t hit the barn door from inside the barn shooting one handed.

 

[CraigC]

Sad to hear that the 'new style .429 inside lubed' .44 Colt is losing out to the .45.
Like Craig says, the .44 is MUCH more compatible (over the .45) with the frame cut out for smooth effortless loading and unloading.
Guess the market just is what it is though.


Mine is an earlier Traditions .44 Colt that was made as a 7 1/2" blue/case.
View attachment 1062177
View attachment 1062178
Since I had plenty of new looking guns, I decided this one would be shorter for spinning and that it would be aged a bit to start.
IIRC, no one was selling the 'antique' versions at the time.
My load is 4.5 grs. of 231 with the RCBS 200 FN cast at 30/1. I've put over 3500 of these through and it's still going strong.

JT

That's awesome! I've been wanting to build one similar out of a Type II. For some reason I think a fully antiqued 5.5" with engraving and old yellow ivory is about the best looking sixgun there is.

Howdy CraigC

44 Colt? I assume you are not talking about the historic 44 Colt cartridge, with a heeled bullet and the outside of the bullet the same diameter as the outside of the case. I have not put my caliper on one in quite a while, but I seem to recall the bullets were right around .451 in diameter. Are you talking about a cartridge with a bullet similar to a 44 Magnum or 44 Special, around .429 in diameter? The reason I ask is I just looked up Uberti's Open Top and they seem to only be chambering them for 45 Colt and 38 Special.

View attachment 1062094

Modern .44Colt with properly headstamped Starline brass. It's essentially a slightly shorter .44Spl with a smaller rim, using the same inside lubed .430" bullets. Many of the later guns are marked .44Colt but have .44Spl chambers. My Type II is like that, just as my #3 Russian is cut for .44Spl. However, my Open Top has proper .44Colt chambers.

The Uberti website is only going to have what they offer though UbertiUSA/Stoeger. Far as I know, Cimarron, Taylor's and DGW offer more variety.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Modern .44Colt with properly headstamped Starline brass. It's essentially a slightly shorter .44Spl with a smaller rim, using the same inside lubed .430" bullets. Many of the later guns are marked .44Colt but have .44Spl chambers. My Type II is like that, just as my #3 Russian is cut for .44Spl. However, my Open Top has proper .44Colt chambers.

Howdy CraigC

I bought a batch of Starline 44 Colt brass for my antique Richards Conversion. However, the plan was to load them with heeled bullets, rather than inside lubed .430 bullets, to pretty much duplicate the original 44 Colt round. I bought a mold from Old West Bullet Molds and a crimping tool to crimp the heeled bullets. I don't recall the exact outside dimensions of the heeled bullets, it is somewhere around .451.






After messing around a little bit I discovered that I could use Starline 44 Russian brass. This would allow me to put less Black Powder in the cartridges so I would not stress the old iron cylinder too much. Yes, my 44 Russian brass is all stained like that after shooting them a bunch of times with Black Powder as 44 Russian rounds. I don't bother to polish the dickens out of them. Anyway, this project is currently on hold. I am not casting bullets right now as I try to get the lead count in my blood down.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Driftwood, is there a particular reason for setting that bullet out that far?
It would seem that seating it deeper would solve the excess case capacity issue, yes?
Moon

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Driftwood, is there a particular reason for setting that bullet out that far?
It would seem that seating it deeper would solve the excess case capacity issue, yes?
Moon

Howdy

I was about to launch into a description of heeled bullets, but I stopped and took a look at my 44 Colt cartridges first.

You are absolutely correct, I was able to shove the bullet further into the modern 44 Colt case than I realized.






Now for the lecture on heeled bullets. My antique Colt Richards Conversion is chambered for the old 44 Colt cartridge. It uses a heeled bullet, meaning the rear of the bullet is the same diameter as the inside of the cartridge case, while the outside of the bullet is the same diameter as the outside of the case. The only ammunition still being loaded with heeled bullets today is 22 Rimfire. Take a look sometime and you will see the bullet is the same diameter as the outside of the case. The 'heel' the narrower part at the rear, is inserted inside the case. What I did not realize until just now is the heel of my 44 Colt bullets is the first 2 bands at the rear of the bullet, I thought it was just one. Anyway, here is a photo showing from left to right, an original antique 44 Colt round, an empty modern Starline 44 Colt brass, a 44 Colt with one of my bullets shoved in the correct amount, and on the right a modern 44 Special cartridge. You should be able to see in this photo that the bullets in the old and new 44 Colt cartridges have the same outside diameter as the case. Unlike the 44 Special which has a bullet that slips inside the case, just like almost all ammo manufactured today.

Anyway, even with my bullets shoved in the correct amount I will probably still use 44 Russian brass, because it will still have less powder capacity than the 44 Colt brass, and I don't want to strain the iron of my antique cylinder.

When I finally get around to loading some of these up.

But thanks a bunch for making me take a closer look at my 44 Colt bullets.

 

[JayBeeKay]

Thanks for all the replies.
This thread gathered some momentum .
I made the decision to get a Uberti Cattleman - I'll get an open top revolver later - I think the Cattleman might take moer abuse, and they look almost as good.

 

[Rockrivr1]

Thanks for all the replies.
This thread gathered some momentum .
I made the decision to get a Uberti Cattleman - I'll get an open top revolver later - I think the Cattleman might take moer abuse, and they look almost as good.

Just reading through this thread and I had the same decision to make last weekend. I was about to buy a very nice Uberti Model 1860 Richards Conversion Open Top revolver. When I went to see it the guy also had a very clean Uberti 1875 "Frank" Outlaw. After a bunch of back and forth I bought the Outlaw. The problem was is I kept wanting them both but couldn't afford both. The guy said give him a deposit and pay it off next month and it's mine.

So what did I do? I bought the Outlaw and put a deposit down on the Richards Conversion. Going to be owning both by next month!!!

The one I bought:


The one i put a deposit on:

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Sorry I am such a School Marm

That is not a Richards Conversion. It is a Richards-Mason Conversion.The William Mason made some design changes to make the conversion revolvers less expensive to manufacture.

This is a Richards Conversion. Notice the different shapes of the barrels. The Richards Conversion used the standard 1860 Army Cap & Ball barrel. The Richards-Mason Conversion used a redesigned barrel, and a redesigned ejector rod assembly. Also, notice the Richards Conversion had a rear sight integral with the Conversion Ring, the Richards-Mason Conversion reverted to having the rear sight be a notch in the hammer. The Richards Conversion had a spring loaded firing pin mounted in the Conversion Ring. The Richards-Mason Conversion had a long, thin, hammer mounted firing pin. I don't know how Uberti addressed the firing pin, but I can tell you the revolver you have pictured is a replica of the Richards-Mason Conversion revolver.

 

[halfmoonclip]

The case capacity thing has made me a Trailboss fan. Just wish it had existed when trying to load down for a 5 lb Ruger #3 in .45-70. That thing would like to have kicked me half way to next week.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

The case capacity thing has made me a Trailboss fan. Just wish it had existed when trying to load down for a 5 lb Ruger #3 in .45-70. That thing would like to have kicked me half way to next week.

There is no way I will be loading a Smokeless powder like Trailboss into cartridges for my Richards Conversion. No way I want to run the risk of blowing up that iron cylinder which is well over 100 years old.

As for 45-70, I only load it with Black Powder for my Sharps and antique Trapdoor.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Driftwood, I'm only feeding modern replicas, or a M25 S&W, so that is a non issue for me, and it avoids the 100'sec velocity variation using less dense powder in .45 Colt cases. Love Trailboss.
Fully understand you using actual BP in your antiques.
With that (now, regrettably) parted #2, I tried kapok, and all sorts of other case fillers to occupy that voluminous case. That thing would have been fun with some cowboy loads, something akin to the .45-50 carbine load. Apparently recoil was an issue for 19th Century cavalrymen as well.
Moon