Tokarev as a woods gun???

[c919]

What do you think? Could the 7.62x25 be a decent round against a boar or bear? Next gun on my list is a Redhawk .44 4" for a woods gun, but until then I need something for camping. I camp and hike mostly in the E. TN area so the only real threats are boar and black bear. I'm not too worried about black bears, Ive encountered several of them in the past and they just preferred to go about their business. However, boar freak me out. I have some family members who have some very unsettling stories about those little forest piggies that have left me wondering what would happen if my wife, my child, and I encountered one in the wild.

Would my Tok be better than, say my SP101 .357 2"? Or perhaps my PX4 .40?

I know it has to be better than a .45 (too slow I'd assume), and there was a thread recently (on here I think...) where a guy shot a boar three times in the face with a 9mm and it did nothing but stall the beast. So, those two are out.

It seems like the 7.62x25 would have the penetration capabilities, but is it too small of a caliber? I was thinking about loading it with some factory S&B FMJs or something of the like. I know it wouldn't be nearly as affective as a big bore wheelie, but it seems like it could be better than any of my 9mm's, .40's, a .357 snubby, 45's, or obviously a .22.

I'd love to hear some opinions on this.

 

[azyogi]

I don't know which .45 you think would be too slow, one of the criteria set by the army for both .45 long colt and .45 ACP was that it be able to founder a horse. If either .45 can cause a horse to fall or sink to the ground it should do for hog. I do not have listing for the muzzle energy of the 7.62 x 25 but the .357 should be enough as it runs in the mid 500's as the .45's run in the mid 400's [thats in ft/lbs] as per the ballistics section of the NRA Firearms Fact Book [third edition]

 

[Ridgerunner665]

The Tok's energy numbers are misleading (500+ ft. lbs. with good loads)...it has energy, but the bullets are not really heavy enough to penetrate much.

85-90 grain bullets are man stoppers...not bear or boar stoppers.

I've lived in east Tennessee my entire life, and I've hiked just about every trail in TN, NC, and VA...a good 45acp will serve you well.

 

[Snowdog]

Why not see how your PX4 handles hot FMJ (or hardcast RNFP) from the likes of Double Tap or Buffalo Bore? I would have much more faith in a stout .40S&W than a 7.62x25 for such a beast.

 

[c919]

If either .45 can cause a horse to fall or sink to the ground it should do for hog

If a hog is headed straight at you, you are going to be shooting it in the head, maybe the chest but that's wishful. Just because a round can penetrate a horse's chest or shoulder, doesn't come close to meaning it can penetrate a boar skull. The angle and thickness of a boar skull are quite impressive in their bullet deflecting abilities from what I understand.

Why not see how your PX4 handles hot FMJ (or hardcast RNFP) from the likes of Double Tap or Buffalo Bore? I would have much more faith in a stout .40S&W than a 7.62x25 for such a beast.

Yeah, I certainly think the .40 seems like a decent line of defense, and my PX4 is fine with anything I feed it. At this point, I'm with you on this. I would certainly trust a .40 more than a 7.62x25 in one of these situations. This is mainly just an interesting idea I had and I'm curious what others think, but the .40 seems like it has the energy to at least slow one down while I find a nice tree.... .

The Tok's energy numbers are misleading (500+ ft. lbs. with good loads)...it has energy, but the bullets are not really heavy enough to penetrate much.

85-90 grain bullets are man stoppers...not bear or boar stoppers.

I definitely think bullet weight would be a problem in terms of stopping power, but I constantly hear about the insane penetration abilities of the 7.62x25. It seems to me that a faster lighter round would penetrate better than a slower heavier round in these circumstances, but I could be wrong about that.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I definitely think bullet weight would be a problem in terms of stopping power, but I constantly hear about the insane penetration abilities of the 7.62x25. It seems to me that a faster lighter round would penetrate better than a slower heavier round in these circumstances, but I could be wrong about that.

The Tok and similar rounds penetrate hard barriers better...pig skulls are not considered hard barriers (I've killed a few).

The Tok penetrates walls, helmets, glass, etc....

When you encounter muscle and bone mass...bullet weight (momentum) is what brings on penetration. Bullet construction also plays a role...but I don't think you are considering frangible rounds here so we'll leave that discussion out.

 

[cloudcroft]

c919,

No, you're not wrong, the other guy is as he knows nothing about the 7.62x25 Tokarev (or probably its predecessor, the .30 Mauser): It's penetration is almost legendary.

It'll drill through bears, cars, several people, one side of a GI issue kevlar helmet (.44 mag won't even do that), anything less than a Class IIIA vest -- whatever -- so just be sure to drill the bear's HEAD so you can hit CNS targets (like the brain)...forget random torso shots as they will just zip through with little immediate effect (unless a spine hit) although the bear may die later (if hit in the heart or other vital organs).

As for torso shots in people, the overpenetration definitely IS a problem so pick up some of that Wolf HP for soft targets. Save the FMJ stuff for hard targets like people in cars, behind barricades, etc..

I have 2 Tokarevs myself, and keep two magazines with them (the original Soviet flap holster, one mag in the gun and one mag in the holster's spare mag pouch): One magazine has FMJs and the other has HPs. I can choose which to use given the situation.

-- John D.

 

[Cosmoline]

When you encounter muscle and bone mass...bullet weight (momentum) is what brings on penetration.

Actually cross-sectional density is primarily what determines the bullet's penetration. An 85 grain Tok has an SD of just .128 which is absurdly low. A .357 Magnum with a 180 grain round has an SD of .202. Not as high as a hunting rifle but workable. A .44 Mag with a 300 grain slug as an SD of .233. The Tok's bullet was never designed for shooting feral hogs or bears and if you try to use it you'll have nothing but trouble.

It's penetration is almost legendary.

Legendary is the word for it. It's been puffed up as some kind of magic super Soviet round for decades. But it is the WRONG TOOL for the job in question. It's way too small and is not going to do the tissue damage needed unless you get a brain hit. This is not a car door or a steel helmet. Who hunts hog or bear with a Tokarev?

so just be sure to drill the bear's HEAD so you can hit CNS targets

They don't pose for you. It's pretty unlikely the OP is going to have problems with a black bear in that area, but in the event of such trouble a proper woods gun is needed.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Cosmoline...you're correct on sectional density, but I think we can agree that weight and sectional density do go hand in hand for the most part. (along with momentum)

 

[c919]

It'll drill through bears, cars, several people, one side of a GI issue kevlar helmet (.44 mag won't even do that), anything less than a Class IIIA vest -- whatever -- so just be sure to drill the bear's HEAD so you can hit CNS targets (like the brain)...forget random torso shots as they will just zip through with little immediate effect (unless a spine hit) although the bear may die later (if hit in the heart or other vital organs).

As for torso shots in people, the overpenetration definitely IS a problem so pick up some of that Wolf HP for soft targets. Save the FMJ stuff for hard targets like people in cars, behind barricades, etc..

This is a prime example of what I've heard forever about the 7.62x25. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. I don't know, that's why I'm asking. I have always heard about these amazing penetration capabilities. So naturally I would think that it would do the trick. All of this is very interesting info guys... Keep it coming .

BTW Ridgerunner: It's nice to have someone with a bit of experience with boar. I really appreciate your input being that you are familiar with the beast in question and the area. If you don't mind explaining it to me, why would penetration be different in pig bone and flesh than in humans. Or do you feel that the over-penetration in humans is just hype?

 

[Cosmoline]

Even if you get the penetration that's claimed, what will you have? A 7.62 hole through a big mean critter. That's not going to stop a large black bear or even cause its eventual death. They're way tougher than humans. NOBODY uses this kind of round for that kind of use.

 

[c919]

Ok, I'm kind of wishing I wouldn't have been so lengthy in my OP. Primarily, I just want to know if a 7.62x25 could penetrate a boar's skull. I would say that is a 7.62 hole in a big mean critter that would certainly be worth having....

 

[Snowdog]

I don't know for certain, but I would suspect a 7.62x25 FMJ has the ability to penetrate the skull if the angle of impact is around 90 degrees.
However, I would think circumstances would make lining up such a shot dicey. I've read of stories where hot (hunting) .44 magnum have been known to deflect off the skull, leaving nothing more than a bloody gash and an angry boar.

Dispatching an injured and incapacitated boar might be reasonably within the realm of the 7.62x25, but I would feel it on the light side for one that's charging. In addition to that, I would shy away from the rounded profile of the 7.62x25 FMJ. Personally, I would want something hardcast with a wide meplate on the high end of the brinell scale to help the bullet "bite" when it hits the angled skull.

EDIT: BTW, nothing wrong with lengthy posts; they give a better picture of what's being asked.
It's those one-sentence posts that I find annoying.

 

[Prince Yamato]

I will admit, that I know nothing about wild animals. That said, call me crazy, but if you unloaded 8 rounds of 7.62x25 into a bear's head, I'm pretty sure it will die.

 

[Shadow 7D]

well, the best way would to go pig hunting, or if you know a farmer who traps ferals offer to test your tokarev the next time he empties his trap.

I believe it got the rep by being superior to larger slower rounds in penetrating early soft vest, in other parts of the world soft body armor is rated to stop the tok, were the similar level would be to stop 9mm

 

[faizi]

Just keep in ur mind that CZ-52 and TT-33 r the only pistols available for Tokarev round.and both have poor sights.as well as dangerous to carry a round in chamber.

 

[lloveless]

If you use the tok round to dispatch a hawg let us know how it worked. Peersonally I'd go with the .357 mag in sp 101
ll

 

[The_Shootist]

Yeah - not much of a hunter, and I'm only going with a gut feeling, but I'd feel alot more comfortable carrying some stout BB hard cast rounds in the Ruger (better still would be my 686+) then any "magic bullet" rounds from a Tok.

The .357 is no lightening bolt when compared to the .44/45 class calibre's in use against large hairy critters, but its not useless. Maybe call it at "the low end" of the spectrum as a woods gun.

 

[-v-]

While I love the 7.62x25 and the TT pistol, I will say that you are probably better off with that PX4 loaded with Hardcasts from either DoubleTap or Buffalo Bore. Both of those rounds offer impressive density and velocity and should do a better job than the TT.

As for the danger of carrying the TT33 with one in the pipe: Just put it to half-cock. That's the gun's safety (locks closed the trigger, sear, and slide). Its just a very unusual one, that I don't think any other firearm has. Leave it to the Ruskie's to combine as many controls into as few levers as possible!

 

[Oldnoob]

The Box O'truth

It was a result shot out of CZ52, but it's a great test to see the penetration power of Tokarev round.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29_3.htm

 

[Cosmoline]

A .22 LR will penetrate a bear's skull. That is not the issue with stopping a charge. Chances of being able to locate and accurately hit that small of a target are nearly nil. You need a larger round with a high sectional density to penetrate into the deep tissue and break bones.

The Tok is designed to be able to penetrate our soldiers' helmets. That has no relationship with being a good wood's gun.

That said, call me crazy, but if you unloaded 8 rounds of 7.62x25 into a bear's head, I'm pretty sure it will die

They don't stand still and they don't wait for you to empty 8 rounds into their head. Thankfully they also almost never attack anyone.

 

[amd6547]

I think the Tokarev makes a fine woods gun...I have carried one backpacking. It is compact, reliable, and points well for me. It can reach out to 100yds.
I am mostly concerned with SD against human predators, but I think the 7.62x25mm FMJ would do the job on animals as well.
The beauty of the Tok for my purposes is that the pistol itself is cheap, meaning I can subject it to trail abuse, and the ammo is cheap and available.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Actually the TT and CZ52 arn't the only guns anymore, there are now 7.62 tok sterlings and AR uppers, they take PPSh mags. I like autos more than revolvers and short of going 10mm I think my TT is the closest I'll get to 357 range.

 

[makarovnik]

The 7.62 x 25 will take care of the hog no problem. Not as good as a .357 magnum but probably better than a .45 acp with similar bullet type.

 

[cloudcroft]

If 8 rounds of 7.62x25mm aren't enough, I think you can get a PPSH41 for about 5-grand (probably cost the Soviets $5 each to make during the war) -- IF you can find one, that is, even though about 6 million of them were produced). If you can't take something down with a gun having a 50-round drum magazine, it must be an alien.

Of course, I'm just kidding, one round is all you need. After all, it's bullet placement, not caliber, so you DO have to be able to hit the target no matter what you're shooting.

7.62 Tokarev will get through most anything, but it can't do the aiming for you.

-- John D.