too much crimp?

[tacmedicp94]

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I'm new to metallic case reloading. These are some pictures of both loaded rounds and pulled bullets from some rounds I tried to load today. Of the three loaded rounds(third pic), the two on the left are mine the one on the right is a WWB that I bought at Wally World. Notice the straight crimp on the WWB and what almost looks like a roll crimp on mine. If you look at the second pic.( middle bullet) that is a Rainier lead safe bullet that has had the copper almost crimped through. The other rounds are both speer and WWB that I pulled then reloaded. Are the Rainier's that much softer? The Rainier's are by far the worst but the other rounds are showing a little deformity too. Is this normal for reloads or is something not set up right with my reloader? When I pull unfired WWB (first pic far left ,the Rainer is far right, speer in middle) to compare the copper jacket has almost no sign of a crimp. The bullet in the first pic. on the far left is pulled WWB.

For what it's worth all measurements are well within the stated limits of all the reloading manuals I have. Will the extremely tight fit of these rounds cause a pressure spike and poss a ka-boom or do these look pretty standard for reloaded bullets? Are the softer Rainier bullets more prone to deforming like this (plated vs jacketed). And lastly am I just being overly anal about the whole situation?

 

[1911swacp]

tacmedicp94,

you are using the wrong crimp on what looks like a .45acp. they dont use a roll crimp insted they use a taper crimp. And yes the Rainier is a copper plated bullet. If you shoot them you will get high pressures and see a 45 head spaces of the case that is why they need a slight taper crimp.

1911sw45

 

[Jeeper]

Simple answer yes. Dont think of it as crimping. Think of it as removing the bell.

 

[RDA 226sig]

You need to back off on the crimper. My first attempt with the Ranier bullets was just as ugly as yours and the range results were not too good either. The crimp should just remove any bell you may have put into the case with your expander die.

I am using RCBS dies for seating and the Lee factory crimp die for crimping which allows me to seat the bullets without deforming them. It is an extra step but it works for me.

 

[45ACPUSER]

Remember that seating is one step and crimp aka removing the case mouth flare....

 

[tacmedicp94]

"you are using the wrong crimp on what looks like a .45acp. they dont use a roll crimp insted they use a taper crimp."


Actually this is a taper crimp die, hence the questions. The Rainier's are the only bullet I'm having trouble with. I have loaded the speer and some hornady bullets I have with no problems once I tweaked the crimp die a little. I'll keep trying with the Rainiers but I'm beginning to think they are more trouble than they are worth.

 

[308sc]

its because Rainer is copper plated as the rest are FMJ.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Yes...way too much crimp...you will have headspacing problems.

And those look to be roll crimped...use a taper crimp on straight walled rimless pistol rounds.

 

[Riss]

Crimping was described to me in simpliest terms to remove the bell and have 1/2 (half) of the thickness of the case pushed into the bullet. So if you mic the outside of the case and mic the bullet, the increase in diameter is only half of the case thickness. Easiest way to tell it to load one, pull the bullet and measure the groove in the bullet. That can give an almost instant visual confirmation that you have done everything correctly. BTW the first on looks like it may be a little light on the crimp, the others are quite easy to tell that they have too much.

 

[1911user]

The copper plated bullets use soft lead with a thin copper coating; worst of both worlds IMO. If you crimp into the coating, your results will not be good. Keyholing, bad grouping are all symptoms of over-crimping plated bullets. Repeat this to yourself: "All I am doing when crimping is removing the belling in the case, nothing more." Again, just remove the case bell, do NOT get greedy and crimp "just a little bit more, it might help". It will NOT help and will likely destroy any accuracy potential of your reloaded rounds. Yes, those bullets are that sensitive to crimping.

I personally have NO (i.e. ZERO, NADA, NONE) use for plated bullets. I buy either real full metal jacket or hardcast lead. Plated is the worst of both choices. If you get the crimp reduced where it does NOT cut the thin copper coating, plated can work if everything else is almost perfect. If it wasn't for the assumed cost savings, plated bullets would not even exist! If you insist on using them, do NOT, under any circumstances, cut the copper coating when crimping or anything else or your groups will look like a buckshot pattern from a shotgun. It really is that simple.

If you are just learning to reload, get FMJ bullets. You will NOT cut through the thick copper jacket on them no matter how much you overcrimp with the LEE FCD. Remember, all you are doing is removing the bell, nothing further. If you insist on crimping like it's a revolver round, then pick a revolver round to reload.

The ideal measurement for a reloaded semi-auto pistol round at the case neck is the diameter of the bullet plus 2 times the the thickness of the brass at the case neck. Any more than that and you are cutting into the bullet.

 

[tacmedicp94]

OK so I think I have this figured out. After going over the reloading process this a.m. I think I identified the problem. It appears that I wasn't putting enough bell in the case mouth before pressing the bullet. What appeared to be a roll crimp was actually where the case was being forced into the copper plating of the bullet. I put a little more bell in the case mouth and backed off the seating and crimping dies and now everything looks o.k. I'll try to get some pics up tomorrow but I just started a 24hr shift so it might take a while.

1911 user said,

"The ideal measurement for a reloaded semi-auto pistol round at the case neck is the diameter of the bullet plus 2 times the the thickness of the brass at the case neck. Any more than that and you are cutting into the bullet."

This makes a lot of sense, I was getting slightly smaller measurements than this formula which made me wonder if the case was being pressed onto the bullet rather than the bullet being pressed into the case. Does that make sense? It's still pretty early.

Thanks for all the info,
adam

 

[David Wile]

Hey Adam,

Earlier you stated, "Actually this is a taper crimp die, hence the questions. The Rainier's are the only bullet I'm having trouble with. I have loaded the speer and some hornady bullets I have with no problems once I tweaked the crimp die a little. I'll keep trying with the Rainiers but I'm beginning to think they are more trouble than they are worth."

I think you may be missing a most important point that several folks have been making here, and that point is that your reloaded cartridges have crimps that completely negate the whole idea of proper headspace. Looking at your picture of the three loaded cartridges, you said the one on the right was the factory loaded round and the two on the left were reloaded by you.

The round you are loading certainly appears to be a semi-auto round that most likely headspaces on the case mouth. All reloaded cartridges that head space on the case mouth should look like the one on the right. The two on the left are simply wrong in that they were crimped to such a point that there no longer was a case mouth on which to headspace the finished cartridge.

It has nothing to do with what bullets you used; it is all about crimping the case mouth till there is no headspace function. If you are using full metal jacket bullets, you should not have to bell your case mouth to seat a bullet, and then you should not have to "crimp out" any bell when you seat your bullets. The sizing die and expander die should provide all the friction necessary to hold your full metal jacket bullet in place, and your case mouth should look like your factory bullet on the right.

On the other hand, if you are using a cast bullet (including copper washed or copper plated), you will need to place a slight bell in the mouth to seat the bullets without shaving lead off them. The bell you use only needs to be big enough to get the bullet started in the case - hardly enough to see with your eye. Any more bell than is necessary to get a bullet started is simply unnecessary wear on the case mouth and shortens the life of the case.

Once you have seated the bullet, all you need to do is to remove the tiny bit of belling you put in the case mouth so the cartridge will chamber and headspace properly. To do this, I have always found the regular seating dies in Lyman, Hornady, and RCBS can be adjusted to seat the bullet and remove the bell in one operation. I have never found a need for other special crimping dies or for seating and crimping in two operations. Other folks prefer to do this in two steps, and there is nothing wrong with this, but I have always found I got satisfactory results with one step seating and "crimping."

I put "crimping" in quotation marks because it is not actually a crimping function. It is simply removing the bell and leaving a straight case mouth for headspacing. After all these years of reloading, I still cannot explain what the difference is in a "taper" crimp. I do know that a taper crimp die is designed to leave the case mouth straight and able to perform its headspace function. Any die, be it taper crimp or regular crimp or whatever, should leave a case mouth straight and able to headspace on same (assuming we are talking about a cartridge that headspaces on the case mouth).

I don't know about the quality of the copper washed bullets you are using, but I do know your picture shows your two reloaded rounds are not being seated properly.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[Walkalong]

Those are too heavy, especially that one. Wow.

All you need on those .45's, especially with plated bullets, is a light crimp. just take out the belling and a hair more. Like these reloads here.

Berrys 230 RN / X-Treme 225 TrFP / Berrys 200 HP / Precision 200 SWC / Zero 185 JHP / Berrys 185 SWC

You can adversely affect headspace with to much of a crimp. It can also damage the bullet enough to affect accuracy as well, especially with plated bullets.

Despite what some have said, plated bullets shoot great in the .45. I personally like the Berrys 230 Gr RN over the Ranier as it is a harder bullet and shaped more like 230 Ball should be. The Ranier 200 Gr SWC shoots great though.

 

[tacmedicp94]

I guess I should have mentioned this earlier but these are 45acp. loads we're looking at here. Is it possable that the crimp was just so tight that it was actually pressing the case mouth into the bullet itself? I know they look like roll crimps but this was done with a 45acp. Lee die. I do understand the head spacing is done at the case mouth on non rimmed cartridges(such as the 45) so its important not to crimp down so much that the mouth is flush with the bullet. After playing with the dies some more I have managed to produce some rounds that look and measure exactly as the factory round does. I'll try to get some pictures up tomorrow. I think the problem with the softer Rainier plated rounds was that without enough bell on the case mouth I was actually forcing the case onto the bullet rather than seating the bullet into the case. If you look at the first picture the case on the right is the Rainier. It looks to me like the fit was so tight that it actually displaced the copper plate upwards and exposed the lead underneath. Did I mention that none of these were loaded with primers or powder? This is simply trying to figure out how to use the seating/crimping dies. Thanks for all the info from everyone, keep it coming, as new as I am to this, I can use all the help I can get.

Thanks again,
adam