Top Break Revolver HELP/ADVICE

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Redcoat3340

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I'd like to add a top break revolver to my "collection." But I could use some help/advice on what to look for. (I know how to evaluate a firearm...my need is which firearm should I be looking at.)

I'm not a formal collector. More an accumulator. I look for shooter grade guns representative of their ilk. (My S&W 38/44 won't win a beauty contest but it shoots great and I got it at a good price. My Colt 1905 is the same....decent condition and I didn't pay a fortune for it. Same with my Victory, Walther P1, P4 and P5. You get the idea.)

So I want a topbreak in .38S&W (or .32 if a bargain develops) and my go to gun would be a Smith Perfected or the DA 4th Model....or maybe a lemonsqueezer.

But there's a whole bunch more out there than Smiths....although all my revolvers except a Colt 1917 in .45 acp are Smiths.

So what about others. Anyone have experience with a Forehand or Iver Johnson or ???? (Not interested in Eastern Arms (Sears) as I've read they used soft metal and they don't hold up.) My budget is under $500 so it won't be in a museum; but I do want it at the range and at 7 or 10 yards I want to see little holes in the paper towards the middle.

Suggestions.....?
 
Two British revolvers in .38 S&W would fit the bill: the Webley Mark IV or the Enfield No. 2 Mark I.

The Webley is likely to be found in "War Finish" which means that it was not highly polished externally. I personally like the utilitarian finish.

Regarding the Enfield, what you don't want are the Mark I* or Mark I** variants. These have the spurless hammer and are thus double-action only. Most of the original Mark I's were converted to this configuration during he war.

In both of these, the sights were regulated for the heavy-bullet .38/200 loading. The commonly-available .38 S&W loading today has a 146 gr. bullet, which means that the sights are going to be off. Some people compensate for this by filing down the front sight. Since the Webley front sight is integral with the barrel, this means butchering a collectible. (The Enfield front sight is removable, so less harm is done.) The original .38/200 loading is available from custom ammo makers, but it's expensive.
 
I've had many top breaks when I was a kid that were either free or very little cost, $1.00 ~ $2.50, that were good shooters after a little work. Most of these needed the locking lugs on the frame welded up and dressed down. Accuracy with these guns is non-existent beyond about twenty five yards or less, but for tin-can shooting, much fun. These old Harrington & Richardsons or Iver Johnsons.

Bob Wright
 
Howdy

I am primarily a S&W guy, so almost all of my Top Breaks are Smiths.

You are talking about 38 S&W and 32 S&W, so we won't talk about the big #3 Top Breaks.

The first thing I will mention is I will not shoot any of my Top Breaks with modern Smokeless ammunition if they were made before about 1905 or so. Many shooters disagree with me over this, and most believe that cartridges such as 38 S&W and 32 S&W are loaded down enough today so they will be safe to shoot in the old pre-1900 days. I don't buy it, so I don't shoot my oldies with modern Smokeless ammo. Unlike Colt, where there is a clear dividing line drawn at 1900 for which guns are safe to shoot with Smokeless and which are not, it is not as well defined with S&W.

You mentioned the Double Action 4th Model. This one left the factory in 1898, so I will not shoot it with modern ammo.

38%20Double%20Action%204th%20Model%2002_zpsk31za4wh.jpg




I used to think the Perfecteds were silly. I just could not get into the idea of having to shove the thumbpiece forward simultaneously with lifting the top latch in order to open up the gun. But something about them appealed to me, so now I have three. I think I better stop now. The Perfecteds were the last Top Break design that S&W introduced, they were made from 1909 until 1920. From left to right, these shipped in 1912, 1917, and 1913. I have no reservations about shooting them with modern Smokeless ammo.

Three%20Perfecteds_zpsbo6ntdgw.jpg




Incidentally, the Perfecteds are the only Top Breaks S&W made with the trigger guard integral with the frame. Unlike all the other S&W Top Breaks, the mechanism is basically the same as the modern Hand Ejectors. However they do not have a hammer block in them, so be careful if you load up all the chambers. I'm not saying you should leave the hammer down on an empty chamber, because that would reduce them to a four shooter. They do have a rebounding hammer. But if dropped on the hammer with a round under the hammer, there is always the slim chance something might break and the round under the hammer might fire. This is true of all the S&W Top Breaks.

hammer%20down_zps6opzolbd.jpg




Lemonsqueezers. The correct name for these is either 38 Safety Hammerless of 32 Safety Hammerless. Lemonsqueezers is just a nickname, owing to the grip safety they had. These are a bit difficult to shoot accurately since they were double action only. However if you squeeze the trigger slowly you will feel the action stiffen just before the gun fires. They were made this way on purpose, the internal hammer does not fall until the trigger pull increases near the end of the travel. In other words, you squeeze the trigger relatively lightly, rotating the cylinder, until you feel some more resistance. Then you give it a bit more pressure and the gun will fire.These were never meant to be target pistols, they were hideaway pocket pistols. However they can be fired fairly accurately once you get used to them. Again, I do not shoot any of mine with modern Smokeless ammo, all of mine were made before 1899. If I had one, the only one I would shoot with modern ammo would be a 38 Safety Hammerless, 5th model, which were made from 1907 until 1940 or a 32 Safety Hammerless 3rd Model which were made from 1909 until 1937.

38%20and%2032%20Safety%20Hammerless_zpsovpu91f6.jpg




Iver Johnson

The only Top Break revolver I own that is not a S&W is this Iver Johnson double action only Hammerless model. It is not a lemonsqueezer, it does not have a grip safety.

There are a couple of things you should know about Iver Johnsons. Around the turn of the Century (1900 or so) Iver Johnson completely redesigned their revolver line. Among other things, they started using better steel, so these revolvers could be safely fired with modern Smokeless ammunition. There are three ways to tell the newer, Smokeless Iver Johnsons from the older models.

The little owl on the grips faces backwards.
The hammer spring is a coil spring.
The notches on the cylinder that lock the cylinder in position have a straight hard edge at both the top and bottom.

IverJohnsonHammerless01.jpg




This is an example of an older Iver Johnson. Notice the little own faces forward. Notice the shape of the cylinder locking notches. There is only one straight, hard edge that the bolt engages, the hand is what prevents the cylinder from rotating backwards when at battery. Not as good a system, and finally, if the grips are removed, the hammer spring is a leaf spring. I am not interested in Iver Johnsons anymore, but if I was, I would not even look twice at one of these older models.

2834897460102804856S600x600Q85.jpg




Finally, for many years Iver Johnson had a marketing campaign called Hammer the Hammer. This is because they had an internal transfer bar similar to a modern Ruger. (More properly, Rugers have a transfer bar similar to an Iver Johnson.) I cannot verify whether my Iver Johnson has a transfer bar, I have never taken it apart. But you can see by this advertisement that the gun being struck is one of the older Black Powder models. But like I say, I would only look seriously at one of the newer Smokeless models.

ARG1_070_zpsayl9grfi.jpg
 
My Webley Mark IV. It was NIB when I got it a few years ago.
That's the commercial finish, not the "War Finish." To my mind, either one is attractive, just in different ways.

Your front sight appears to have the original high arch. If the top of the front sight is flat, that means it's been filed down to account for modern ammunition.
I have been using Matt's bullets to load a 38/200 Mk I replica load.
Matt's Bullets also sells preloaded .38/200 ammunition. The cost, including UPS shipping, is about $50 for 50 rounds.

This uses round-nose lead bullets. As a side note, the British military had abandoned such bullets in the .38/200 loading prior to WW2, allegedly because they (arguably) violated the 1899 Hague Declaration. The WW2 British loading actually used a 176 gr. jacketed bullet. AFAIK, this is available only on the collector ammo market.
 
That's the commercial finish, not the "War Finish." To my mind, either one is attractive, just in different ways.

Your front sight appears to have the original high arch. If the top of the front sight is flat, that means it's been filed down to account for modern ammunition.

Matt's Bullets also sells preloaded .38/200 ammunition. The cost, including UPS shipping, is about $50 for 50 rounds.

This uses round-nose lead bullets. As a side note, the British military had abandoned such bullets in the .38/200 loading prior to WW2, allegedly because they (arguably) violated the 1899 Hague Declaration. The WW2 British loading actually used a 176 gr. jacketed bullet. AFAIK, this is available only on the collector ammo market.

My Webley was brand new when I got it a few years ago. It does not have the war finish or a filed front sight. It was one of the last 250 Mark IV made back in the early 1980's. Webley and Scott produced Mark IV into the early 1980's mostly for police forces in India and other police forces. The side of the barrel has special engravings on it. You can just make out the one side in the earlier picture and might be able to read the other side in this picture.

D3dOdVg.jpg

When I first found Matt's bullet he was only offering the bullets not loaded ammo (he was one of the few offering the correct .361 diameter bullets I found). I now have my 650XL setup to load 38S&W so I just load the ammo myself at significant savings. I use a 38 Super sizing die, 9x19 powder funnel, 9x19 seat and 9x19 crimp (very lightly crimped with just the actual case taper, I don't ever actually get to the taper part of the crimp die) with a 38/357 shell plate I open up just a touch to let the 38S&W cases in and out better. I had to get the extra small powder bar as the powder charge I am using is IIRC ~2.5gr of powder. I get the Mk I 200gr hemispherical nose bullet up to a blistering 600 fps. It has a very satiating WHOP when it hits a steel target.

It was my understanding also, that the Mk I bullet was deemed a possible violation of the Hague and thus the development of the Mk II FMJ bullet. That said I also believe that due to ammunition shortages they were still issuing a fair amount of old stock Mk I ammo throughout WWII.
 
1943 Albion Motors made Enfield No2 Mk1** (all matching numbers)

Mom bought it for Dad late 50's from the back of a magazine...

10wpo34.jpg

My pet load of 2gr Red Dot under a 158gr truncated cone @ .358" shoots to point of aim at 7 yards...

This gun rode in the door pocket of Dad's Jeep Wagoneers for about 40 years...
 
I picked up a matching 1932 Enfield No. 2 MK 1 for about $400 this spring. I too have been loading the Matts 200 grain "Webley" MK1 bullets and duplicating the original 38/200 load.

enhance.jpg

Shoots well at 10 yards, and is a fun gun to shoot. .


Once I started loading the 38/200, had to go and get a Lend Lease Victory too. :)


This is an old S&W 4th Model I found in my dads desk drawer when he died. Its a 32 S&W, although there wasnt a mark on it to tell you that. Had to do a little research to get it figured out. The serial number puts it in the black powder era, and thats what Ive been loading it with. Got brass, bullets, and dies from Midway for less that what two boxes of loaded ammo was going for at the time.

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Here's a Smith & Wesson top break revolver that you could look for. Thirty eight DA Fourth Model. Forgot I had it. Won't bust your budget, either. Purchased at the beginning of last year, of all places, at the overpriced gun emporium called Cabela's for a bit under $250 including tax and transfer. Almost an antique, but not quite!
 
Wasn’t that long ago I picked up an H&R Defender in .38s&w for less than $100
View attachment 802975

A Defender is a nice choice because it is one of the very few guns in this category with adjustable sights. I myself like the the 4-inch square-butt version better:

https://www.gunsamerica.com/913190402/H-R-DEFENDER-38-S-W-TOP-BREAK.htm

But it may not have the old-time flavor you are looking for.

Hopkins & Allen Safety Police revolvers are interesting top breaks. They had different type of top-latch than any other gun, and a safety mechanism that was arguably as effective as Iver Johnson's transfer bar. I won't claim they are as well made as a Smith & Wesson, but they generally don't cost as much either. (S&W Safety Hammerless and Perfected Models can be quite pricey.)

The least expensive brand to get in really good condition in the 1880's to 1910's style would be an H&R, I think. Iver Johnsons should be just as common, but for some reason I don't see as many, or in as good condition as H&Rs.

Have fun looking!

PS - I would get a 38 S&W or maybe a 32 Long. 22s are going to have been shot a LOT, generally, and 32 S&W ammo (the not Long kind) is harder to find than 38 S&W or 32 Long. Also I think it is an utterly useless cartridge, although it has its supporters.
 
Many many thanks to all who helped here. It is much appreciated.

I've narrowed it down to a Perfected or H&R Defender....although I'm going to look for a Webley just for the heck of it. (I had an Enfield DA and, while "historic" was terrible to try to shoot. It may have been that particular gun, but I'm going to pass on those.

Again: much appreciated.
 
I'd like to add a top break revolver to my "collection." But I could use some help/advice on what to look for. (I know how to evaluate a firearm...my need is which firearm should I be looking at.)

I'm not a formal collector. More an accumulator. I look for shooter grade guns representative of their ilk. (My S&W 38/44 won't win a beauty contest but it shoots great and I got it at a good price. My Colt 1905 is the same....decent condition and I didn't pay a fortune for it. Same with my Victory, Walther P1, P4 and P5. You get the idea.)

So I want a topbreak in .38S&W (or .32 if a bargain develops) and my go to gun would be a Smith Perfected or the DA 4th Model....or maybe a lemonsqueezer.

But there's a whole bunch more out there than Smiths....although all my revolvers except a Colt 1917 in .45 acp are Smiths.

So what about others. Anyone have experience with a Forehand or Iver Johnson or ???? (Not interested in Eastern Arms (Sears) as I've read they used soft metal and they don't hold up.) My budget is under $500 so it won't be in a museum; but I do want it at the range and at 7 or 10 yards I want to see little holes in the paper towards the middle.

Look for seond-hand S&W Performacne Center reissue of single-action cavalry revolver in .45 Scoefield. The were made in limited number in blued or nickel years ago. Top notch product in every way that is only going to appreciate in value. Distant second would be large version Webley & Scott in .455 I think whatever it is it was standard caliber in Red Coat Military before advent of smaller revolver in .38/200. Avoid .45 ACP conversions like the Marburg Virus.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
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Look for seond-hand S&W Performacne Center reissue of single-action cavalry revolver in .45 Scoefield. The were made in limited number in blued or nickel years ago. Top notch product in every way that is only going to appreciate in value. Distant second would be large version Webley & Scott in .455 I think whatever it is it was standard caliber in Red Coat Military before advent of smaller revolver in .38/200. Avoid .45 ACP conversions like the Marburg Virus.

Can you get one of those S&W Schofield repros for less than $2,000? Much less, anyway?
 
You should be able to find an H&R for not much. This late 1880s .38 S&W H&R was all of a hundred dollars:

hr.jpg

Brass and bullets are available. That reminds me, I need to whip up some loads for it-- I haven't shot it yet.
 
Can you get one of those S&W Schofield repros for less than $2,000? Much less, anyway?

Ok, I did not take into accaunt budget of $500. Forget what I have suggested. Sorry I seen that Union Jack and started thinking Bentley, Rolls, Purdey, Holland.....:uhoh:
 
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