Top loads using black powder in modern large caliber revolvers

Onty

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2003
Messages
957
When reloading using smokeless powder, my (and everybody else's) biggest concern is that right amount of powder is dumped in each case. As a standard practice, I reload on sunny day, in the morning or afternoon. After dumping powder in cases, as a last checking before bullet seating, I take a trey outside on a sunlight, tilt it the tray to get shadow on the edge of powder in cases, and making sure that the powder level is the same in all of them. Yep, the last thing we want is a double charge, and it could be done when using faster burning powders in large caliber rounds.

Then, one day I was watching on internet folks reloading 45 Colt ammo for Ruger NMBH, and it struck me like lightning; there is no way that 45 Colt could be double charged nor overloaded (at least for Ruger revolvers) using FFFG black powder! Loads are in range 35 to 40 grains, behind 255-260 grains bullet, and according to some reports, from 7,5" barrel revolver muzzle velocity could easily reach 1000 fps. Well, 40 grains looks bit too optimistic, but some claim that using drop tube and 260 LBT style bullet, protruding .450" from the case, 40 grains isn't unrealistic. And if less carefull reloader dumps to much powder, powder will overspill, or bullet just couldn't be seated. Nice "built in" safety!

And we have .480 Ruger! If we want more wallop, using black powder, than from 45 Colt, .480 seems to me right way to go, because of its cavernous case that will take larger amount of powder (something like 11%). With all out stainless steel .480 Bisley and longer 6.5" barrel, all looks better than 45 Colt.

Anybody loading top loads using black powder for 45 Colt or 480 Ruger? As for later one, I am guessing that 260-270 grain bullet should be close to 1100 fps. Just courious what would be muzzle velocity using 300 grain bullet?

BTW, any real benefit using gas check bullets with black powder? If gas check reduces leading considerably using smokless ammunition, I guess that with gas check leading and BP fouling should be way less than with plain base lead bullets.


P.S. There are also .475 and .500 revolvers, but even BFR and FA are rare, never mind those custom revolvers from top gunsmiths. However, I doubt that more than a few are shooting black powder ammo from those revolvers.
 
Last edited:
(1) There is no practical way to overload BP (at least using 3F/2F/1F) in a cartridge gun. Fill it as full as the case will accept/compressed (or as you desire)

(2) Gas checks not required (or even useful) at BP pressures

(3) soft, Soft, SOFT SOFT lube (and lots of it) is your best friend

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THR Readers chime in (or kibitz) as appropriate
 
This guy took a Walker 45Colt conversion and developed a wildcat cartridge. I think somewhere one was converted to 460 S&W but I can't find that video.

 
Last edited:
A good candidate for larger 45 case (shortened 460 S&W) would be converted Ruger 357 Maximum. Since its cylinder is about .25" longer than standard 45 Colt cylinder on NMBH, I would say that with longer case and round, black powder charge could larger for at least 10 grains, with drop tube and some compression maybe 15 grains more than in 45 Colt case. Not that I am rushing to get Ruger 357 Maximum and convert it to some sort of 45 Maximum, but it could be the way to go for somebody who strives to make cartridge 45 cal black powder revolver more powerful than 45 Colt.
 
I've tried 3F in a .500 Magnum. It worked about like you'd think: lots of noise, lots of concussion, lots of cleanup! Accuracy was okay but not great, and I suspect that fouling was the issue: I don't have any molds with grease grooves large enough to really deal with that much BP. Velocity sucked - I think it was in the neighborhood of 650 FPS with a 440 grain cast bullet, fired through what amounts to a 3" barrel and an inch-long compensator.

It was a fun experiment, but I don't see any reason to do it again.
 
It would be interesting to see what would be muzzle velocity from 500 S&W using black powder, fired from revolver with 8-3/8" barrel. Yeah, a bullet with large grease groove would be the way to go, something like this, but .500" dia:

45-260F.png


Accurate Molds 45-260F http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-260F
 
Last edited:
The more lube the better but it's not as critical with revolver barrels. In fact I use smokeless bullets for my 44-40 and they have thin grease grooves. I even used them in my Rossi 92 with a 20 inch barrel and they did good without leading or excessive fouling. I didn't get a lube star at the muzzle so I doubt they would have worked well with a longer barrel.
 
Here is some info on .45 Colt BP loads.

Here is an article by John Taffin that has a lot of information on the .45 Colt in general. The article also has info on BP as well as a few other smokeless powders. It’s a good read.
 
Generally, as Mehavey said overloading with black powder is a non-issue. Especially in a modern firearm. In fact, the opposite problem exists. You need to ensure you load enough so there is no air gap at your desired seating depth.
 
40 grains in the .45 Colt is easy, just compress the powder with a separate die, and you can even get a few more grains than that. Don't need to fiddle with drop tubes or shakers, or anything like that. My EL Patron only has a 5.5" barrel, but velocity was close enough to 1000fps that a 7.5" barrel would have obtained that easily.

Black powder will burn cleaner when compressed. Guys often try it with no compression, and are very disappointed with the results. Yes, it will go bang and make lots of smoke, but foul the gun badly and velocity will be low. A compressed load of 40 grains in a modern case will go bang better, not smoke so much, not foul as badly, and velocity will be impressive. And no, even loading with 4fg is a non-issue, as far as pressure is concerned.
 
40 grains in the .45 Colt is easy, just compress the powder with a separate die, and you can even get a few more grains than that. Don't need to fiddle with drop tubes or shakers, or anything like that. My EL Patron only has a 5.5" barrel, but velocity was close enough to 1000fps that a 7.5" barrel would have obtained that easily.

Black powder will burn cleaner when compressed. Guys often try it with no compression, and are very disappointed with the results. Yes, it will go bang and make lots of smoke, but foul the gun badly and velocity will be low. A compressed load of 40 grains in a modern case will go bang better, not smoke so much, not foul as badly, and velocity will be impressive. And no, even loading with 4fg is a non-issue, as far as pressure is concerned.
Very interesting! Would you please specify the powder, the bullet type, its weight and OAL of assembled round.

A number of times I had seen videos where shooters specified that they were firing black powder rounds. In some cases a lot of smoke was created, but in some not so much smoke that I was wondering are they shooting a rounds with some kind of smokeless powders that aren't burning cleanly. Looks like that your experience provides answer what is happening.

Talking about using 4FG, anybody tried top loads using that powder behind 250 grains, or heavier bullets?

Last but not the least, anybody has experience using jacketed bullets 250-270 grains, even 300 grains, in front of 3FG and 4FG in modern revolvers like Ruger large frame NMBH? Jacketed bullets provide more resistance, thus might help to bump up pressure. On the end, I wouldn't be surprised if jacketed bullets, for the same weight, provide even more velocity than lead ones.
 
Last edited:
Very interesting! Would you please specify the powder, the bullet type, its weight and OAL of assembled round.

A number of times I had seen videos where shooters specified that they were firing black powder rounds. In some cases a lot of smoke was created, but in some not so much smoke that I was wondering are they shooting a rounds with some kind of smokeless powders that aren't burning cleanly. Looks like that your experience provides answer what is happening.

Talking about using 4FG, anybody tried top loads using that powder behind 250 grains, or heavier bullets?

Last but not the least, anybody has experience using jacketed bullets 250-270 grains, even 300 grains, in front of 3FG and 4FG in modern revolvers like Ruger large frame NMBH? Jacketed bullets provide more resistance, thus might help to bump up pressure. On the end, I wouldn't be surprised if jacketed bullets, for the same weight, provide even more velocity than lead ones.
The bullets I used were the 250 grain RN bullets, I think they are graphite coated, got them from Midway. 6.64 was OAL, but that just depends on the bullet. I used 3fg Swiss powder. By the way, I always put a very thin cork or fiber wad under a lead bullet, with black powder.

I have not tried 4fg in either revolver or rifle cartridge loads, but that's what I shoot in all my cap-N-ball revolvers, and it works great.

I've not tried jacketed bullets in a revolver, but I don't see a problem with that. In my Marlin .45-70 I shoot a Speer JSP over 80 grains of 3fg. Works quite well, and I suspect, think, but don't know, that it kind of scrapes a lot of the fouling out of the bore. Below is a 1" group (#3) that load produced out of the Marlin, with peep sights, no scope. Black powder can perform. As you might guess, 80 grains in a 45-70 case is very compressed.
marblkgrp.jpg
 
You didn't specify the distance. If the group is on 50 yards, it is very impressive, if distance is 100 yards, it is OUTSTANDING!
 
I can see a gas check working with black. In the Civil War era, a packet of bullets had one Williams Bore Cleaner bullet with zinc base washer in with the regular minie balls.

Mike Venturino wrote of loading .44-40 with drop tube and compression die, same as for a .45-70, saying that it was more work in the loading, but enough less fouling that he did not have to clean his guns during a CAS match.
 
Please forgive me for silly questions, I am total a beginner in black powder!

Any benefit of using drop tube and special compression die before seating a bullet?
 
Drop tube does the same thing as simply vibrating the case (and vice-versa)
It just settles the powder grains together so more will fit compactly.
 
It would be interesting to see what kind of velocity could be gained from 7.5" Ruger NMBH, using properly loaded 45 Colt and 300 grains bullet, like this one:

45-300-BGG.JPG
 
Drop tube does the same thing as simply vibrating the case (and vice-versa)
It just settles the powder grains together so more will fit compactly.
Right. I just tap the case on the bench a bunch of times, that seems, to me, to settle the powder as well as a drop tube. Then compress.
 
It would be interesting to see what kind of velocity could be gained from 7.5" Ruger NMBH, using properly loaded 45 Colt and 300 grains bullet, like this one:

View attachment 1200087
Just keep in mind, the longer the bullet, the less powder capacity. There is always a "sweet spot" between powder capacity, and bullet weight.
 
Gets greater density, better burn without distorting the bullet by seating it hard enough to compress the load. Most folks just slapping them together are only compressing a little with the bullet.
Truth, how much you can compress the powder with the bullet is very limited. "Most folks" don't want to go to the extra trouble of compressing the powder in a separate operation/step.
 
Last edited:
Anybody tried vibration table to get black powder compacted in the case? How it compares with drop tube?

Seems to me as a simple procedure; using standard powder measures, damp powder in cases, cases in loading tray, and whole tray on vibration table.

Any affordable vibration table that will work?
 
Back
Top