TR on pronghorns and the 30-30

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The .30-30 was an established round, the .307 not so much. I know a fellow that bought one, though. He won't give up on it, has to handload it anymore, but then, he handloaded it anyway. :D

Did .450 Marlin flop, or .444? What's the purpose of these two when there's the .45-70? Some marketing things just make little sense.

Another thought on the .30-30/.307, but most of the .30-30 hunters I know aren't sophisticated at ballistics like the guys on this board. They probably never even heard of the .307 when it came out or the XTR rifles.
 
Another story....a guy that was in our gun club 20 years ago (he's now passed on) wrote a book about his life. He'd been in the war in the Pacific. When the war ended, he bagged a job as an Indian agent in Alaska. He said the natives there, at the time, used the .30-30 for EVERYthing, from big bear to moose on down. .30-30 ammo could be easily had at the time and was cheaper than most other. So, it was their choice for many years.

This fellow had a .300 H&H and went with the natives to shoot a moose. They laughed at him with his cannon. He fired in a canoe or some such water craft at a moose and the recoil nearly knocked him overboard. He missed the moose. The natives just shook their heads and chuckled at him. :D

No, I'm not sayin' the .30-30 is appropriate for griz or moose, just sayin' the Natives in Alaska once relied on it for very practical reasons.
 
MCgunner said:
Did .450 Marlin flop, or .444? What's the purpose of these two when there's the .45-70? Some marketing things just make little sense.
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While not addressing your contention on 307 vs 30-30, one must note that there had been no rifle chambered in 45-70 for decades when the 444 was introduced in 1964 as a modern "replacement" for the 45-70. While there were numerous problems with the launch of the 444, one must remember that in 1964, the 45-70 was a fairly obscure and de facto obsolete cartridge. Its renaissance in the 1970s has in part to do with the problems of the 444 Marlin launch which revived interest in big bore lever guns, but whose problems cried out for the 45-70 as a solution, and the remarkable take off of the Buffalo Rifle replica industry. So the 444 Marlin was not really going up against a well established cartridge at its launch and, had they done a better job addressing twist rate, using cut rifling throughout, and providing better bullet selection, it might have succeeded in replacing the 45-70. In other words, the 444 Marlin made a lot of sense. It's execution doomed what is a very good cartridge to an enthusiasts niche. As to the 450 Marlin, I cannot explain the thinking there...
 
MCgunner said:
Another thought on the .30-30/.307, but most of the .30-30 hunters I know aren't sophisticated at ballistics like the guys on this board. They probably never even heard of the .307 when it came out or the XTR rifles.
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That's a good point.:)

MCgunner said:
No, I'm not sayin' the .30-30 is appropriate for griz or moose, just sayin' the Natives in Alaska once relied on it for very practical reasons.
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Actually, that’s a fairly reasonable comparison to Teddy Roosevelt using a .30-30 to shoot a pronghorn antelope in the hip at 220 yards in 1896. TR wasn’t exactly “sport hunting," he was getting meat for the cow camp, it wasn’t during hunting season (if there even was such a thing back then) and he didn’t have a tag that he was only allowed to draw (if he was lucky) every other year.

Native American hunters in Alaska are the same way – they’re “subsistence hunters,” not “sport hunters,” they’re allowed to hunt year-around, and they don’t need tags. I too have heard the .30-30 is popular for moose among the Native Americans of Alaska, and Canada as well. For that matter, I’ve heard that some of them use .22 Hornets.

However, while I know from my own experience that my .30-30 is hardly what I’d call “marginal” for mule deer at reasonable ranges, if I manage to draw a pronghorn antelope tag next year, (I haven’t drawn one in 10 years) I’m not going to be carrying my handy little Model 94 out on the Idaho desert where “the deer and the antelope play.” That’s because I know my .30-30 isn’t even up to “marginal” for pronghorn antelope on the Idaho desert where shots often exceed 200 yards, and you can only draw a antelope tag every other year – if you’re lucky, which I’m not.

BTW, I have a brother-in-law who is a Native American from Alaska. He makes the best, hot-pepper smoked salmon in the world. No kidding! His hot-pepper smoked salmon and an ice cold beer make my mouth water just thinking about it as I type this.:D
But my brother-in-law has also told me about hunting moose on his ATV until the snow gets too deep and they have to switch to snow-mobiles. Non-Native American Idahoans such as myself would probably lose our hunting privileges for life if we ever got caught hunting moose on an ATV or snow-mobile, without a once-in-a-lifetime tag, and out of season to boot!
 
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The major drawback of the thutty-thutty is the crappy rear sight on the lever guns. That limits the accuracy at ranges "out there". The tang-mounted peep site allows longer shots, particularly for those who have memorized the trajectory and are good at guesstimating distances. Ballistically, there's no reason not to make a clean kill at 400 yards.
 
A buddy inherited a pre-64 M94 Winchester from his grandpa. He put a receiver peep on it and I sat down with it using store bought ammo at our range and proceeded to put 5 rounds into a bull with a 1.5" group at 100 yards. I impressed myself, but I was super impressed by that rifle. :D I was always told the 94 was inaccurate. Hmm....:D

Of course, the above story was 25 years ago. My eyes ain't working at the moment.
 
RPRNY said:
While not addressing your contention on 307 vs 30-30, one must note that there had been no rifle chambered in 45-70 for decades when the 444 was introduced in 1964 as a modern "replacement" for the 45-70. While there were numerous problems with the launch of the 444, one must remember that in 1964, the 45-70 was a fairly obscure and de facto obsolete cartridge. Its renaissance in the 1970s has in part to do with the problems of the 444 Marlin launch which revived interest in big bore lever guns, but whose problems cried out for the 45-70 as a solution, and the remarkable take off of the Buffalo Rifle replica industry. So the 444 Marlin was not really going up against a well established cartridge at its launch and, had they done a better job addressing twist rate, using cut rifling throughout, and providing better bullet selection, it might have succeeded in replacing the 45-70. In other words, the 444 Marlin made a lot of sense. It's execution doomed what is a very good cartridge to an enthusiasts niche. As to the 450 Marlin, I cannot explain the thinking there...
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I'll never understand why Marlin stubbornly clings to the 1:38 twist for all of its .44 Cal barrels.

Every big bore fan I know like big and heavy for caliber. Does anyone really want a button flinger?
 
For the 30-30 haters, because it's only good under 100 yards...
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Not a hater, just a realist. And for the record I own about a dozen Marlin and Winchesters, mostly in 30-30. It kills stuff just as well as it did in 1895. But so does a sharp stick. The truth is that the 30-30 had been obsolete for at least 4 years before it was invented. It was truly a huge step backwards in cartridge development. The 6.5X55 and 7X57 predate 30-30 by several years and are vastly superior with about the same recoil. Both of those rounds went on to be successfully used on every continent and have killed every game animal on the planet including elephant.

Both the 6.X55 and 7X57 are legitimate elk cartridges out to 400-500 yards. Far out classing the "newer" 30-30. Not only that, but virtually every non-magnum cartridge developed since 1892 can be traced back to the great grand parent 7X57 case. And by the time TR got to Cuba and had to face the 7X57 he felt a bit different about his obsolete 30-40 Kraig's and the 30-30.

One myth of the popularity of the 30-30 is the alleged lightweight rifles. Ever put a Marlin or Winchester on some scales. My Marlin 30-30's are the heaviest rifles in my safe, and the Winchester 94 isn't far behind. My Winchester 70 in 300 WSM is a couple ounces lighter, my 308's as much as 2 lbs lighter. A bolt gun with similar barrel lengths has always weighed less.

The real reason. The 30-30 was introduced in 1895 and compared to previous lever action cartridges was a hot, flat shooting round. It gained some popularity, but by WW-1 when most of our boys saw how much more effective truly modern cartridges could ben it started to slip in popularity. But by the mid to late 1920's Hollywood was cranking out Western movies at a prolific rate. Our grand fathers and great grand fathers starting buying lever guns again so they could look like the cowboys on the silver screen. That trend remained steady through the 1970's when the classic Western movies started to lose popularity.

Lucas McCain and John Wayne did more to sell lever guns than any performance the 30-30 ever had.
 
"The major drawback of the thutty-thutty is the crappy rear sight on the lever guns. That limits the accuracy at ranges "out there". The tang-mounted peep site allows longer shots, particularly for those who have memorized the trajectory and are good at guesstimating distances. Ballistically, there's no reason not to make a clean kill at 400 yards."

Agreed here. If I have to shoot open sights, it needs to be a very defined patridge style. The sights that came on my 1960s '94 look like bubbles. With the peep I installed its actually fairly accurate despite the mediocre trigger and light weight.

Marlins are chunkers but Winchesters are very easy to carry, especially with their straight stock. It's like walking with a baseball bat in the woods vs a spinning rod... weight not considered they slip through brush much easier than a scoped 22" bolt gun. My Hawken is similar, feels like I'm carrying an 28" crowbar around.

I like MC's reference to the sks as a semi auto 30-30. With decent ammo they fill the same role. Not an ideal rifle but they are handy and accurate enough to get the job done under 150 yards.

HB
 
From what I've read about TR, he wasn't much of a sportsman when it came to taking long shots at game. Even his African guides were a little disturbed about his sometimes reckless shots at game, since they were the ones who had to track them, dangerous or otherwise.

So the fact that he would take a 220 yard shot with a 30-30 doesn't surprise me.
 
MCgunner said:
Another story....a guy that was in our gun club 20 years ago (he's now passed on) wrote a book about his life. He'd been in the war in the Pacific. When the war ended, he bagged a job as an Indian agent in Alaska. He said the natives there, at the time, used the .30-30 for EVERYthing, from big bear to moose on down. .30-30 ammo could be easily had at the time and was cheaper than most other. So, it was their choice for many years.

This fellow had a .300 H&H and went with the natives to shoot a moose. They laughed at him with his cannon. He fired in a canoe or some such water craft at a moose and the recoil nearly knocked him overboard. He missed the moose. The natives just shook their heads and chuckled at him. :D

No, I'm not sayin' the .30-30 is appropriate for griz or moose, just sayin' the Natives in Alaska once relied on it for very practical reasons.
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The natives in Alaska also drink booze made in old car radiators. That doesn't mean I'm changing my choice of scotch.
 
HB said:
"I saw him sink backward, the ball having broken his hip"

Excellent shot? :scrutiny:
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Whether Roosevelt was a better or worse shot than the average hunter today, not a bad shot for 220 yards with those crude open sights. He does remark that they had begun to start - any animal might suddly decide to move the split second you pull the trigger.
 
I like the 30 30 for cast bullets... The long neck and case size work very well for that application. Plenty of dead deer here with that. Im sure the 300 mag would kill them deader, but dead is dead enough : ). Right tool for the job, close range goes to the 30 30. Far shots go to the mag.
 
redbullitt said:
I like the 30 30 for cast bullets... The long neck and case size work very well for that application. Plenty of dead deer here with that. Im sure the 300 mag would kill them deader, but dead is dead enough : ). Right tool for the job, close range goes to the 30 30. Far shots go to the mag.
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I have a mold and have shot cast bullets from my .30-30 Contender, but I don't hunt with the bullet. The gun REALLY likes Nosler BTs 150 grain and they really perform on game.

I just picked up a 175 grain mold in .323" for my 8x57s. I have an old '88 German commission rifle I've had for years, an Egyptian Hakim battle rifle (semi auto in 8x57), and my wife just bought me a K98 Mauser, Yugo variant. It's a fine shooter and as .323" bullets have kinda become costly over the years, I figure they'll work great in reduced loads for plinking with my little 8x57S collection. :D The commission rifle was converted to 8x57S for used by the Volkstrum as Germany was running short of K98s toward the end of the war. It's not the strongest designed action in the world and lacks the K98's gas handling in case of a ruptured case, so it's prudent to firre reduced loads in it, anyway. And, my Hakim fires 'em well enough without ejecting 'em, which saves me brass. :D

I'm tempted, once I get my eyes fixed, to use that K98 for an occasional hunt. But, I'll be giving up my low light capability because I have NO intention of modifying, drill/tapping it for scope mounts. It says as issue, not a hunting rifle, but a fun collectable shooter. And, boy, what a finely built rifle it is, old world craftsmanship. :D

I don't really shoot my .30-30 Contender a lot. I'd cast some more for it if I did. I have a 200 grain mold and one doesn't have to load reduced loads for it to keep leading down. I've never thought about hunting with that bullet, though, it being a round nose. I know a guy that casts for 7.62x39 and shoots hogs with his cast loads. He says they work fine, but I don't know. I kinda think my cast .357 SWCs work well enough if I want to shoot game with a cast bullet and, of course, there are my heavy .50 caliber Minie ball molds for my front stuffers. :D Those take no prisoners, but they do require pure lead, no alloy, to work.
 
MCgunner said:
I have a mold and have shot cast bullets from my .30-30 Contender, but I don't hunt with the bullet. The gun REALLY likes Nosler BTs 150 grain and they really perform on game.

I just picked up a 175 grain mold in .323" for my 8x57s. I have an old '88 German commission rifle I've had for years, an Egyptian Hakim battle rifle (semi auto in 8x57), and my wife just bought me a K98 Mauser, Yugo variant. It's a fine shooter and as .323" bullets have kinda become costly over the years, I figure they'll work great in reduced loads for plinking with my little 8x57S collection. :D The commission rifle was converted to 8x57S for used by the Volkstrum as Germany was running short of K98s toward the end of the war. It's not the strongest designed action in the world and lacks the K98's gas handling in case of a ruptured case, so it's prudent to firre reduced loads in it, anyway. And, my Hakim fires 'em well enough without ejecting 'em, which saves me brass. :D

I'm tempted, once I get my eyes fixed, to use that K98 for an occasional hunt. But, I'll be giving up my low light capability because I have NO intention of modifying, drill/tapping it for scope mounts. It says as issue, not a hunting rifle, but a fun collectable shooter. And, boy, what a finely built rifle it is, old world craftsmanship. :D

I don't really shoot my .30-30 Contender a lot. I'd cast some more for it if I did. I have a 200 grain mold and one doesn't have to load reduced loads for it to keep leading down. I've never thought about hunting with that bullet, though, it being a round nose. I know a guy that casts for 7.62x39 and shoots hogs with his cast loads. He says they work fine, but I don't know. I kinda think my cast .357 SWCs work well enough if I want to shoot game with a cast bullet and, of course, there are my heavy .50 caliber Minie ball molds for my front stuffers. :D Those take no prisoners, but they do require pure lead, no alloy, to work.
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Congratulations on the Mauser (and the wife!).

Light loads in the Hakim to keep it from destroying brass is an interesting development. I have seen what the Hakim will do and by comparison the G3/HK/PTR 91 is like a Lab carrying an egg in its mouth!

The 30-30 begs for cast bullets! Especially in your Contender. As you say, that 200 grs bullet (is it the Lyman 311299?) loaded over a starting weight of 14 grs 4227, for example, should deliver about 1500fps. I load a Lyman 311284 sometimes in my Handi Rifle and while it doesn't have the reach of the 30-40, it's a hoot to shoot. And I have taken 6 VT whitetail with the 311014 from my Marlin Texan in 30-30. In fact, for this year's elk season, I am planning a retro-hunt with my 30-40 Krag sporter and the 311284.
 
RPRNY said:
Congratulations on the Mauser (and the wife!).

Light loads in the Hakim to keep it from destroying brass is an interesting development. I have seen what the Hakim will do and by comparison the G3/HK/PTR 91 is like a Lab carrying an egg in its mouth!

The 30-30 begs for cast bullets! Especially in your Contender. As you say, that 200 grs bullet (is it the Lyman 311299?) loaded over a starting weight of 14 grs 4227, for example, should deliver about 1500fps. I load a Lyman 311284 sometimes in my Handi Rifle and while it doesn't have the reach of the 30-40, it's a hoot to shoot. And I have taken 6 VT whitetail with the 311014 from my Marlin Texan in 30-30. In fact, for this year's elk season, I am planning a retro-hunt with my 30-40 Krag sporter and the 311284.
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Nope, not a Lyman. I'm cheap. Most of my molds are Lee and most of 'em work really well. If I get one that doesn't (like a 124 RN 9mm I got), I haven't lost a lot. :D
 
My brother used one with 170 gr flat nose and a max load of win748. It was like getting hit by a small sledge every time you squeezed the trigger, but it killed a lot of deer. 30-30s are excellent in a short rifle in the woods. I prefer my 357 lever, but it truly is a 100 yard gun. Saying 30-30 if good for 300 yards is not accurate. It will kill at 300, but most can't kill with it at 300.
 
they both will work at 300 yards, learning how high to hold is the trick. with a good scope with clicks and a good range finder from a rest they both will kill deer at 300 yards easily. the 300rum will just take less clicks than a 30-30, shooting a psp bullet will help the 30-30 greatly. i shot a rem 788 in 30-30 with a good scope and nosler 150 gr BT bullets at 2500 fps and tho i never killed a deer at 300 yards, i have killed groundhogs at that range and a little farther. eastbank.
 
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