Training and home defense?

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One trains so that he acts without effort or deliberation without involving the usual senses that will be preoccupied.

I believe other posters nailed it with the gun handling observations. Many "lifelong shooters" (the pudknockers one sees at Sportsman's Warehouse waving pistols about or cycling a repeating rifle at his waist) have absolutely no idea how to run their gear and as Clint Smith sez most people get in trouble because they do not know how to run their gear not because they do not know how to shoot.

Training also addresses the problem of "even a tiger sleeps". If you realize that your training is fecklss if you are sawing logs like the Three Stooges, then you will plan on early warning systems (metal doors and frames, dogs, geese, what have you) to give you time.

Anywho beginning training is just the starting point. However, it is an important starting point.:)

Have you considered TR's "Home and Vehicle Defense" class, Tall? I think it's right up your alley (or is that hallway?).:D
 
Have you considered TR's "Home and Vehicle Defense" class, Tall? I think it's right up your alley (or is that hallway?).
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Well, you're going to have to enlighten me as to who "TR" is ...?

(seeing as how Teddy Roosevelt has been dead a while now)

Then I could judge as to whether it was right up my two-track ;)


Anyway, I'm not saying training is bad - it just seems like most of these things could be covered by discussion right here on THR. Or is there some sort of unwritten rule not to talk about too much stuff so that we won't infringe upon the entrepreneurial opportunities of professional trainers:confused:
 
Keep in mind there are several 'trainers' posting here, so you'll get a predictable response from them. Then there are several who have spent lots of money getting 'trained' by them, and of course they too have to sing the praises of 'training' or else they might have wasted a lot of money for dubious value, huh? It seems to me that all 'training' is, is common sense applied to dangerous situations. If you have some, and do a little directed thinking, you can do your own training without the middleman. But then, who's making any money like that?
 
Brilliant. It's the global training conspiracy that's really just repackaging common sense and creating training robots.

People who don't train always want to talk about what training is or isn't. Most people who do take formal training think training has value. Which group do you think knows more about training?
 
TallPine, I'm curious about how you evaluate the responses you get here. It's a public forum with people whose experience and knowledge vary. You probably don't know many of them or perhaps not any. Conversely there's little chance that anyone here knows you, your own circumstances, or even your home except for what you're able to describe but probably not fully and maybe not even usefully. So what can you do that's useful with the replies?

You're also asking two different questions and scrunching them together. One question is "What use is training if your goal is to defend your family against a home invasion?" The other question is "How can I defend my family against a home invasion?"

The two questions conflict. If you think that training has no value unless it's based on knowledge of you, your circumstances, and your home, it can't be possible for Internet responses to have any value at all. If, however, Internet responses from people you don't know have some value, then surely someone you work with face to face should be much more useful because you are able to evaluate what you're being taught as it takes place.

I doubt that "almost everyone says to lock yourself in your bedroom if a break-in occurs at night." It doesn't even make sense. If you're watching television downstairs and a masked man waving an AK-47 bursts through the outside door to your right, who would tell you to run towards him so you can get to the staircase and try to make it upstairs to your bedroom? I don't think any good instructor would lay down such a rule and I don't believe you would hear it without objecting.

Massad Ayoob and Louis Awerbuck are two of the instructors I've had that teach extremely valuable principles and techniques that have benefitted me and my family. But they didn't do it within the limits of an Internet forum message (or even several) and the best I could do is give you my version of what they taught as filtered through my abilities to communicate. Would you really bet your life on that? And how could you know that what I said is even close to what they said? Both of them, by the way, agreed on roughly the same principles but each of them had much that was individual. Neither of them, by the way, was anything like what TexasSkyHawk described.

That first question--about the value of training for home defense--is troublesome because it can be asked about any learning. Why not acknowledge that there's downright bad training, indifferent training, good training, and great training, then move on to find and take the great or at least the good?

Some of the advice you've received so far strikes me as excellent. Jeff White, I think, advised that you do something like switch roles: instead of being concerned so much with defending your home, spend quality time attacking it. Of course you don't want to kick in your own doors, but you do need to know which of them are susceptible. How can a lone invader get in, where can he go and how, and what can you do to stop or delay him? Then do the same with twosies and threesies. Jeff's advice about defensive points is excellent.

And then it all falls apart because you are the inevitable weak link. You don't know how to be a home invader so you can't be sure you can trust what you think you're determining. The best way to be sure, I think, is with great training from a great instructor, asking questions, and evaluating everything. If you won't do that, consider buying Louis Awerbuck's Safe at Home DVD or Video and watching it a few times so you can think about it in terms of you and your own situation.

El Tejon's "TR" = "Thunder Ranch," Clint Smith's excellent training operation in Oregon. Here's a link to that course he mentioned. He's good, it looks good, I haven't taken it.
 
Wow, all i can say is that if you truly believe you have no need for serious no BS training then you are not really prepared for reality... If you think that years of shooting paper on a static range has prepared you for fighting with a weapon then you are setting yourself up for failure... And as far as some peoples thoughts of closing with an unknown number of subjects who may or may not be armed, without armor, on your own... All i can say is good luck
 
Training is very helpful. It develops skill. The single most important skill is being able to put lead on the target quickly. Without that, nothing else matters.
Defending your home and the manner in which you do so has nothing to do with skill, it is tactics. Training in tactics gives you the knowledge and ability to adapt sound (depending on who teaches them) tactical principles to your individual situation.

If you teach someone the key principles of home defense planning, then they can develop a plan unique to their situation. So that type of training is also helpful.
 
There are instructors who do come to one's home for one-on-one training, and for the purposes of assessing the house layout. It cost less than most people would assume.
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Anyone know of instructor in eastern NC offering that kind of training? I am interested because I am one of those that will have to clear my own home, room by room. I have a 14 month old son to protect. My house is a one-story with lots of open spaces (very few blind corners), so at least I've got that going for me.
 
The training conspiracy theory is nonsense.

Without training you will always be limited to a certain level of performance. People are certainly capable of inventing self-defense techniques, tactics, and associated products. In many cases they are re-inventing the wheel and re-inventing it square. There has been enough research and testing in real world events to say that there is a range of techniques and tactics that are effective, and further work has been done to create efficient ways to teach those things to others. There is some hubris in thinking that one could just make all that up on ones own.

I don't think I would want to go to a self-taught doctor.
 
Keep in mind there are several 'trainers' posting here, so you'll get a predictable response from them. Then there are several who have spent lots of money getting 'trained' by them, and of course they too have to sing the praises of 'training' or else they might have wasted a lot of money for dubious value, huh?
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that is some far out thinking there clipper. screw getting that new gadgit, or highspeed do dad spend that money on ammo and a few trainning courses. if i attend a training course and it sucks i am gonna tell you about it that is all it is too it, to save you from getting screwed too, or having a bad experience, but if the place, instructers, etc are due praise then i will give them praise and tell others about it. period that is why we do reviews and aar's.

for example i had a great time at tdi. prices were great, instructers and instruction was good, and i felt i learned alot. actually almost everything that i train on now came from the instruction there. the high ready the draw stroke, all the way down to the thumbs foward method that they teach. i feel they set my base for handgunning now i want to take that to the next level and learn to fight and win, and that is why i will be found at tactical response asap.

blackwater, prices out of this world, it was alright but i wouldn't go back. it seemed like everyone was uptight and trying to be billy bad arse all the time and there was no room for a laugh or a joke. everyone tried to be "hard" the whole time and they just accomplished making themselves look stupid. i did courses that i hadn't done other places so i did learn but it is a place that i won't go again. instruction was good, and the instructers so-so.

i prefer the atmospher of tdi and i would go back there and go to twice as many of the courses, or better yet try out tactical response before i would go to blackwater again. and still have money left over.
 
Being a mindcontrolled slave to the international training conspiracy, I would like to add, that besides techniques and gun manipulation, intensive FOF is really useful for stress innoculation.

I normally have not been charged by a baseball bat wielding nut or have to defend my bedroom, myself in a 7/11, etc. from people who may shoot me with sims.

Getting my back hosed thru a t-shirt by sims and a full auto airsoft gun in a bank robbery, gives one a touch of perspective. For a F.O.G, very useful.

Self-training and self-sexuality, both can be amusing but ...
 
...And so say the line of trainers and trainees...

I'll simply point out the VAST majority of SD shooters who have never set foot in a training facility, and yet despite all that, have managed to prevail over countless bad guys. The numbers say you guys are full of it. I have nothing against training for it's own sake, it's like excercise, but it's what's going on upstairs that wins the day, and if you don't have it, no training is gonna give it to you. Uncle Sam taught me how to fight as part of a team, but I don't travel in those circles any more, and knowing how to advance under fire, or prevail when surrounded by 20 gangster/terrorist/zombies, quite frankly, is so far from the realm of real life, it has no meaning. However, I don't have a piece of paper hanging in it's frame on the wall proclaiming to all and sundry that I'm now a bona-fide, certified, honest-to-God OPERATOR! Oh the shame of it all...
 
That's ridiculous. Mindset, which you allude to, is the most important aspect, however, training can improve mindset (usually in the form of a series of realizations). Tactics can be taught. Skills can be improved. Training will show you what parts of your gear actually work vs. not work.
 
Clipper said:
Uncle Sam taught me how to fight as part of a team, but I don't travel in those circles any more, and knowing how to advance under fire, or prevail when surrounded by 20 gangster/terrorist/zombies, quite frankly, is so far from the realm of real life, it has no meaning. However, I don't have a piece of paper hanging in it's frame on the wall proclaiming to all and sundry that I'm now a bona-fide, certified, honest-to-God OPERATOR!
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heh heh.

Pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. I don't have a piece of paper from anywhere stating that I am now prepared and trained for a home invasion. Somewhere up in the attic is my DD214 (if the moths or other critters haven't eaten it) that lists some of my training, schools, certifications and pretty chest jewelry.

But I'm not expecting to have my house invaded by Cuban-trained Sandanistas or Libyans.

95% of surviving a home invasion or assault on the street (or wherever) is about being mentally prepared. It's not a switch you turn on or off. The attitude that you will prevail and survive, regardless, is an attitude that must be left in the "on" position at all times. Doesn't mean you see the boogerman behind every tree, or that every tree branch that brushes up against a window gets a blast of AK47 fire.

It's a state of mental preparedness.

And that's why, as Clipper states above, the overwhelming majority of self-defense shootings you read about in The Armed Citizen and/or elsewhere came out successful for the good guy.

They were mentally prepared to do what was necessary to protect themselves.

And hate to break it to you, but training will never change that. Training is teaching you physical responses and tactics. And having been through some of the best, most rigourous and hardassed training Uncle Sam has, it still doesn't teach you or instill in you the mental attitude of "Can I and Will I shoot to defend myself or my family?"

If it did, we'd never have a single soldier freeze on the battlefield after the first shots were fired.

Prepare yourself mentally above and beyond all else.

Jeff
 
The NRA has produced some good home defense training videos, which cover a lot of material.
Good tactical training should be via concepts, which you can then adapt to your situation.
For example, it is probably better to hole up somewhere in the house after calling 911 rather than trying to locate the bad guy.
Exactly where in your home to do this would be mission specific.
 
Just a question Clipper and Skyhawk:
If training is worthless, how would you have felt going into combat (if you have) for Uncle Sam without any?

Does that mean you think that a soldier does not need training to survive? You guys both make good points but practically invalidate your entire argument by saying "Training is worthless" in one breath and then talking about how well trained you are in the next. Sure there are bad trainers and techniques out there. In fact, I would say some of the best known teach the worst stuff. But, does that mean there is no good training for civilians? No! It also doesn't mean that there isn't training that will help you. And, FWIW and FYI mental attitude and conditioning can be taught, just not a lot of people know how or even consider it.
 
TexasSkyHawk, is it fair to conclude that you think it's a waste of time for people to take the NRA personal protection courses including "Personal Protection Inside the Home" and "Personal Protection Outside the Home," or the NRA "Refuse To Be a Victim Course"? If their only benefit is to give meaningless certificates I don't think that's a good enough reason to take those courses.

I don't expect my home to be invaded by Cuban-trained Sandanistas or Libyans either. If determination is all that's needed to prevail against an armed home invader there's probably no better test of whether anyone has that mindset than the reality of a home invasion.

Many of the successful self defence stories in The Armed Citizen columns of the NRA magazines were about people who seemed never to have had any instruction. The villain attacked, the 82-year-old grandmother found an old gun she'd never used before, and bang: one dead villain at her feet. You're right. It does make a mockery of the need for any instruction at all.
 
So all of the people with guns and no training that manage to win the day is proof that there is no need for training? What about all of the people with guns and no training that choke, miss, and get hurt, prosecuted, or killed?

Sure the majority of armed citizen encounters with bad guys tends to go in favor of the armed citizen, and most of them are not trained - but most the bad guys they are encountering aren't prepared or motivated enough to fight. Statistically speaking, verbal commands generate orders of magnitude more 'stops' than gunfire does so by the 'what-works-most' logic we should just skip the guns altogether. The point is that when you do encounter the rare bad guy who came ready to fight we would like to be better at it than he is.

The purpose of training, and of having gear is to get an advantage in the fight. You chances of succeeding go up when you are better prepared than your opponent. Mindset is important, but need or desire doesn't make ability. Mindset might let you ultimately prevail but tactics, skill, and equipment can reduce the amount of suffering you have to endure first.
 
Lurper said:
Just a question Clipper and Skyhawk:
If training is worthless, how would you have felt going into combat (if you have) for Uncle Sam without any?
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Where did I specifically write that "Training is worthless" (your words and quote of me/Clipper)? In fact, where did I even infer that training itself was worthless?

I believe what I inferred was that training in and of and by itself is not nearly as useful as many would think. There is another extremely significant factor involved, and rarely is it discussed.

Please go back and re-read, carefully, what I wrote.

Robert Hairless said:
TexasSkyHawk, is it fair to conclude that you think it's a waste of time for people to take the NRA personal protection courses including "Personal Protection Inside the Home" and "Personal Protection Outside the Home," or the NRA "Refuse To Be a Victim Course"? If their only benefit is to give meaningless certificates I don't think that's a good enough reason to take those courses.
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Nope. Not at all. Never said anything like that.

MostlyGenius said:
Mindset is important, but need or desire doesn't make ability.
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Without the proper mindset, all the training in the world ain't gonna help you.

Jeff
 
All the training classes and exercises, I've done talk quite a bit about mindset. That's a bit of a strawman argument.

As pointed out, good training can help the novice think through and develop mindset. It isn't something that the 'warrior' necessarily and automatically arrives at. Maybe some do, maybe some learn it from class and observing examples.

Given you have mindset, knowing what you are doing seems useful if the situation has a touch of complexity.

Silly argument, more for scoring points than making sense at this point for those arguing against some major utility of training as compared to pure mindset.
 
Interesting discussion that I've started ... ;)

I gave the stolen plutonium back to the Libyans after I gave up on getting my time machine to work.

Robert Hairless, I asked one question, got some responses, and then asked another question based on those responses.

Everyone has to make the best use of resources (time and money) based on the perceived need and risk. The actual odds of a home invasion at my place are almost astronomical, but then I don't want to take the chance of being totally unprepared should I happen to win the reverse lottery. There's a lot of different training that might be helpful - maybe I should also take a full-blown EMT course "just in case" as well?

There is also a risk of an extended power outage in which case we would also have no water (electric well pump). So for instance a generator is higher on my list right now than "self-defense" training. That doesn't keep me from thinking about a basic home defense plan in the meantime.
 
I've heard more than one person comment after taking their first class, "I didn't know what I didn't know."
Of course, none of them knew everything before they started. If you do, don't bother. You'll save your money and the instructor's time; everyone will be happier.
A good class with a good student will improve marksmanship, weapons manipulation and mindset. All 3 have general utility, and aren't specific for any one situation.
 
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