Training and home defense?

[ShackleMeNot]

When I read threads like this I see posts from people who will never train because they make training out to be something it is not and then tear that down (called a ‘straw man fallacy’). They bring up fighting off hordes of terrorists or fast roping out of a flaming helicopter as if those things make up the content of any class they would be taking. They don’t bring up the fact that they probably don’t have a purposeful draw stroke, can’t deal with malfunctions in any organized manor, have trigger control issues, don’t shoot on the move well or use cover correctly.

I’m glad the topic of Mindset came up. Mindset goes far beyond just having the will to win the fight. Mindset is a path of continual improvement. This includes being humble enough to know that someone out there may be able to teach you things you wouldn’t learn on your own. Mindset is taking that $500 that would have gone to buy another gun that you don’t really need and spending it on tuition and ammo for your first class. Mindset is going back after you take that first class and practicing what you learned.

Following on what Tim wrote, there are 4 levels of competence that students go through while learning a new process or skill. This is for any subject and not just fighting related knowledge.

1. Unconsciously incompetent - You don't know what you don't know

2. Consciously incompetent - You know there is something that you don't know.

3. Consciously competent - You have learned a new process or skill but you still need to concentrate and focus on that skill to perform it correctly

4. Unconsciously competent - After much practice you have mastered a skill or process and you do not need to focus all of your attention in order to be able to perform it well. This frees up your mind to be solving other problems while performing the process or skill

I throw in a fifth level that is “conscious ignorance” when someone is proud of not knowing how to do something and doesn’t want to improve. It can also include someone who thinks they know it all and don’t have anything left to learn. These people lack the most basic ingredient of human learning which is an open mind.

 

[MostlyGenius]

I think this thread has run it's ridiculous course. Those that are opposed to seeking training seem to think they have a monopoly on mindset, and that they have some unique perspective that flies in the face of the conventional wisdom. It is simply hubris to take the stand that all this training stuff is snake oil.

 

[TallPine]

Really riled some folks up, huh ...?

 

[TexasSkyhawk]

I think this thread has run it's ridiculous course. Those that are opposed to seeking training seem to think they have a monopoly on mindset,

Who's opposed?

I didn't read where anyone was opposed?

Hope you guys train better than you comprehend.

Jeff

 

[Lurper]

I really don't think shooting itself is as important as just not putting yourself in a bad or worse situation (tactics).

Guess that statement 'bout sums it up. If you truly think that shooting skills are secondary, then you're right-you don't need training.

Hope you guys train better than you comprehend.

The implication of your first two posts is clear.


If you can't hit your target quickly, the best tactics in the world won't save you.

 

[sacp81170a]

I don't know about anyone else, but to me training involves a lot more than going to a class. Sure, the class is the place to learn what you should be doing and some of the ways to do it. Taking that home and practicing over and over is what makes the class worth paying for. If you don't do that, you're wasting your money. Gun handling skills are perishable in that, if you don't perform them for some period of time they deteriorate. Not practicing is an indication of your mindset and it's not a good one.

Going back for more classes means that you're refining your technique and trying to improve, which says a lot more about your mindset than anything posted on an internet discussion forum. All of us who have BTDT and come back in one piece know that there's a large element of luck involved in surviving your first encounter with the "elephant". Those of us who expect to see that elephant again are motivated to make luck as small a part of surviving as we can.

It's easy to say "I don't need no stinking certificate" which is just another straw man argument and an easy excuse for not investing in your training. I have yet to meet up with a BG who was scared of a certificate. If you have to say "I went to a professional class 5 years ago and haven't trained consistently since", you've done worse than waste your money. If you say "I don't need no stinking professionals teaching me because I am one", then maybe you need to take a class to see how your skills stack up. If you can truly take a class and not learn anything new, at least you got the practice.

Final analysis: training never hurts, but it can help. Downing other people for getting training is foolish.

 

[mercop]

It is easy to do internet chin rubbing but it is something totally different to show up to a course in front of other people to show them what you don't know.

 

[sacp81170a]

it is something totally different to show up to a course in front of other people to show them what you don't know.

Hmmm, I think I've been in one or two classes like that....

 

[El Tejon]

Class or two? Heck, that's every class for me.

The only thing I have going for me is that I am not embarrassed or put off from training by my amazing ignorance.

 

[sacp81170a]

The only thing I have going for me is that I am not embarrassed or put off from training by my amazing ignorance.

That's pretty much all you need to benefit from training. A good attitude and a sense of humor about your own limitations. It's why I'm such a good student...

 

[che_70b]

I can see the point that in many cases you could be spending the money you spend on training on better things. Like a generator or a water purifier since loosing basic services in natural disaster are more likely than a home invasion. Or on a good loud alarm system that will wake you up if someone is trying to get in since all the training in the world is useless if someone sneaks up and shoots you in bed.

I would say that after one understands basic gun handling there are quite a few things that seem to me to be better uses for your cash than training (especially if you have to travel a long distance to train).

 

[possum]

I would say that after one understands basic gun handling there are quite a few things that seem to me to be better uses for your cash than training (especially if you have to travel a long distance to train).

basic for me isn't good enough, the having to travel part is almost null now as there are quality instructers and instructions all over the country and many that pass through quite often all over the us, and soe even out of the us.

 

[Cosmoline]

take a stand

I'd advise against standing anywhere if you're taking a defensive position. Esp. at the top of a stairway with lights behind you.

 

[TallPine]

I'd advise against standing anywhere if you're taking a defensive position. Esp. at the top of a stairway with lights behind you.

Well, as I said before - the stairs has a partial railing on one side and then walls, so there is a corner to shoot around. It's a rustic cabin style stair with no door. Still better than defending the master bedroom IMO. Even though the other bedroom is unoccupied these days, I don't really like a "plan" that involves shooting into another room just in case we had guests.

What I really need is one of those guns that shoots around corners. It would best be full auto and 100 rd drum so I wouldn't have to aim.

Even better would be a pot of boiling oil hanging high up in the stairwell, with a rope pull to tip it. I dunno, does somebody make a tactical black electric pot to keep the oil hot? Maybe chocolate syrup would work just as well, followed by a pillowfull of feathers to complete the effect.

 

[sacp81170a]

Even better would be a pot of boiling oil hanging high up in the stairwell, with a rope pull to tip it. I dunno, does somebody make a tactical black electric pot to keep the oil hot? Maybe chocolate syrup would work just as well, followed by a pillowfull of feathers to complete the effect.

Even better, why not rig your stairs so that they fold down into a slick ramp that leads to the water tank full of sharks in the basement?

I can see the point that in many cases you could be spending the money you spend on training on better things. Like a generator or a water purifier since loosing basic services in natural disaster are more likely than a home invasion. Or on a good loud alarm system that will wake you up if someone is trying to get in since all the training in the world is useless if someone sneaks up and shoots you in bed.

That's where the balancing act comes in. It's probably beyond most of our means to take a class every month, but it wouldn't hurt to take a class every couple of years. Think of it as being like keeping up your CPR certification. That's something you have to be recertified in every two years, even though if you've learned it once you should pretty well have it down. Same with first aid training, refresher every couple of years. I think that's a pretty reasonable approach. If you can afford more, go for it, but try to get refresher training in if you can.

 

[che_70b]

Which reminds me that I may want to re-up my CPR certification.

If there were any training classes nearby with a reasonable cost (bear in mind that I am a person who tends to buy new guns and such when I have money, I do carry for deffense, but I am gun lover at heart and I always want something new to play with ) then I would probably be willing to check it out. After all, these classes usually involve shooting and I do enjoy doing that .

 

[TallPine]

Even better, why not rig your stairs so that they fold down into a slick ramp that leads to the water tank full of sharks in the basement?

I guess if I took a training class they would teach me how to do stuff like that.

Would be okay until one of us had to go down and feed the woodstove in the middle of the night.

keeping up your CPR certification

Oh yeah ... let's see, it's blow 2 and push 30 - or is it push 2 and blow 30 ???

 

[mercop]

I have showed up to many hot calls with a nice hot cup of WAWA coffee in my hand. What a great weapon..I mean............tool.

 

[Brian@ITC]

Not everyone has “common sense” and they need some guidance. Some trainers are a good resource because they train on a regular basis and learn things the average person will never learn because they don’t put in the dirt time. Truth of the matter is that I learn far more on my own when I am training because I am a person who over analyzes things. But, I still seek training whenever possible. And the fact that I am involved with SWAT Training gives me SOME insight that I would never have had. Most new things are learned through someone’s personal training time.

For those of you who choose to live life by the numbers, over 2 million burglaries take place every year. And I doubt it is the same 2 million. So, there are approximately 300 million people in this country and that may be a bit high but… It is safe to say there are around 100 million homes. With that in mind, the chances of your home being broken into are one in fifty. So, those are pretty good odds that your home is going to be broken into. Yes, a lot of people do survive home invasions, and a lot of people do not. It is a crap shoot if you want honesty. Do you want to base your survival on numbers, or what you know or THINK you know?!!! If you want to play the numbers and not get any training, it could cost your life, or a loved ones life. It would be a shame not to spend a SMALL amount of money on learning things that could prevent the loss of life.

The problem with a lot of people who don’t receive professional training is their ego. It is human nature, and especially when it comes to the male ego, to act like we know more than we do. Is all “professional” training worth the money? I would be a liar if I said it was. But, if you learn just ONE thing would the training not be worth the money? Maybe those who are bashing instructors had a bad experience with one and “assumes” we are all the same… Out to get your money. Well, here is the deal… We have services to offer whatever they may be. There is a NEED to know how to defend yourself while out in public, as well as when at home. Whether or not you see that you need the training is up to you. Of course, you should take the time to fully research those you are considering training with. And it doesn’t hurt to ask around and look online.

Home defense is NOT a shallow subject! Understanding the four layers of home defense, the types of burglars, and their hours of operation are all really important. Developing a home invasion plan is not easy! You are more likely to come home and find your home invaded than to have your home invaded in the middle of the night. So, now what are you going to do if there is a loved one who is in the house and you don’t know if they are alright or not?

Now, regarding the training issue of home defense. Well, quite honestly, there are programs that are very valuable although they are not “personalized” for YOUR home. In fact, we have an eight hour course that provides you with good solid principles of home defense. In the next month or two we will have a lot of this course available on DVD so be sure to visit our website. We address three basic floor plans and how to set your home up for tactical advantages, which in itself is pretty deep, as well as creating a good safe room and home invasion plan. We go in depth on things that has taken us years to learn and develop. There are things that you can do wrong that can get you killed. There are things that you can do that can save your life. Paying for GOOD information is like buying a life insurance plan, home insurance plan, or another other insurance policy. You hope that you never need it, but IF you do, you hope that your plan is good and you have thought things through. And… that you have PRACTICED your plans with and without you present because your loved ones need to know what to do if you are not there! This is where most people fail in their home invasion plans… that is, practicing.

No one has “all” the answers. When it comes down to it, you are paying for experience, research and development. Most people don’t have the time to gather the experience or put much thought into their plans. So, only YOU can answer how much it is worth to learn things that could contribute to the safety of you and/or your loved ones.

A lot of people think that because they have a gun, that it is their “plan” or “salvation”. If that is YOUR case, then I’d hate to be anyone in your home!

 

[TallPine]

Brian, I'm not bashing any instructors. It does seem that some have been bashing me just for asking a question.

Now, regarding the training issue of home defense. Well, quite honestly, there are programs that are very valuable although they are not “personalized” for YOUR home. In fact, we have an eight hour course that provides you with good solid principles of home defense. In the next month or two we will have a lot of this course available on DVD so be sure to visit our website. We address three basic floor plans and how to set your home up for tactical advantages, which in itself is pretty deep, as well as creating a good safe room and home invasion plan. We go in depth on things that has taken us years to learn and develop. There are things that you can do wrong that can get you killed. There are things that you can do that can save your life.

Now this sounds excellent to me, especially because I can study it at home. It is my belief that 90% of home defense is avoiding getting into a shooting situation in the first place, and then maximizing your advantage if you do. The last thing I want to get into is a "fair fight"

 

[Brian@ITC]

Keep in mind there are several 'trainers' posting here, so you'll get a predictable response from them. Then there are several who have spent lots of money getting 'trained' by them, and of course they too have to sing the praises of 'training' or else they might have wasted a lot of money for dubious value, huh? It seems to me that all 'training' is, is common sense applied to dangerous situations. If you have some, and do a little directed thinking, you can do your own training without the middleman. But then, who's making any money like that?

Tallpine... I believe that I was referring to this comment and possibly more like it. I don't believe that it was yours but rather Clippers. Someone please correct me if I am wrong!

Tallpine, you CAN learn a lot from videos. And, I think that ours is detailed enough that you can get the same information that you would get if we were doing a group course. Of course, we COULD personalize a plan for you, but that costs more and depending upon where you are located it could be quite expensive for us to come there just to do your home. However, if you would be interested in hosting a course, you can contact me and we could see about coming to your town.