Training that doesn't cost big buck$

[ahadams]

Hi folks, FWIW I'm an NRA certified instructor in Rifle, Pistol, Personal Protection and Home Firearm Safety, but my shotgun skills,er well my lack of shotgun skills, uhm, uh, let's just say clay pidgeons (and most live birds) do NOT tremble at the mention of my name; if you know what I mean?

Now remember I'm operating on a limited income here, so going to one of those fancy tactical training places isn't even possible, so what are the best ways to train, especially for tactical home defense use? I've basically developed something similar to what I'd do with my .45 in a home defense situation, but is that legit or not and is there something better? Also if (God forbid) it should come to a comunity defense situation what's the best way to train for that?

 

[Dave McCracken]

(Soft hiss as a fresh can of worms is opened)...

There's many roads to your goal, here's my choice of maps.

Many good rifle and pistol shooters are terrible at shotgunning because they can't get past aiming.
Riflery and shotgunning are far more different than one might think.

If eye/hand dominance isn't mixed, learning to look at the target,NOT THE BEAD, is a reasonable start and not that hard ONCE you learn the difference in technique.

Study the floating threads at the top of this forum, at least the technical stuff, and ask questions as you are doing.Between Erick, Al Thompson, HSmith and the usual suspects, there's a century or so of real, practical knowledge and expertise here.

Next, find someone that knows something about shotguns and teaching, and get your mount and MOA grooved in. The stock should fit you at this point, if not change it. Methods of so doing are in the Archives.

Then, buy the lightest loads you can find and use them up. Buy Ammo, Use Up, Repeat, BA/UU/R.

Concentrate on the basics.Once you're comfortable and hitting most of what you're shooting at, make it a little harder and keep improving.

I've used Practical COFs like El Presidentes. Also, the clay sports are underrated for practical use.Use low gun and surprise launches Acquiring a 4 inch wide target moving 35-50 MPH, obliterating it and then another moving on a different vector is great practice for more "Serious" employments of the shotgun.

Community Defense requires teamwork, and some basic knowledge of communications, tactics, first aid, etc. Again, please check the floaters.

HTH, and please feel free to ask. The only dumb questions are those not asked...

 

[ahadams]

thanks Dave, it's that 'getting past aiming' that doesn't make sense to this rifle shooter. I spend years working on breathing control, sight picture, trigger control and all that only to be told with a shotgun "just swing through the target" on a clay pidgeon... I can't begin to describe how *wrong* that feels. ack!

 

[Dave McCracken]

Arlin, you're not the only one. Mom taught me to shoot a 22 when I was so young I can't recall exactly when. Pop was the shotgunning tutor and got me a bit later. The dichotomy held up my progress as a shotgunner badly.

But,it can be overcome and it will if you keep at it.Riflery is more science than art, shotgunning is vice versa. This is why I fuss so much over how a shotgun "Feels".

Keep working at it, and someday soon it'll be as natural as breathing.

 

[HSMITH]

Arlin, shoot some skeet. You will get repetitive target presentations that you cannot aim at and hit. You will also be forced to lead the targets to hit them. Skeet it typically cheap to shoot, but beware of skeet shooters. They are some of the friendliest most helpful guys around, and that is bad in some ways. Most of them are not good shotgunners, and very few are any good at teaching. Watch the guys that are shooting well, hammering the targets and shooting perfect scores. Mimic their foot positions and start points, mimic their balance too because skeet cannot be shot well flat footed. The weight moves between the feet a lot like a good golf swing. Lots of clubs have a guy that will work with new shooters for nominal fees, and there are sporting clays instructors all over.

SHOOT LOW GUN, shotguning is very dynamic and starting with mounted gun will take freedom of movement away. The mount makes a free swing without aiming easier.

If you are really busting your hump at this and cannot seem to get the hang of it shoot some rabbit sporting clays targets. The feedback of where your pattern is on the ground in relation to the target may be all you need to be able to lead the target.

I wanted to learn shotgunning, wingshooting in particular, and had a strong rifle and pistol background. I had all the troubles you are having and then some. I did it myself, all of it. It was a mistake and I try to keep others from doing the same thing. It took a couple years and 75K + rounds to get decent. I do believe that with competent guidance that could have been cut to 20K or less.

 

[Smoke]

Hmmm.....

Now for a different perspective.

Buy a decent quality pump gun with a slug barrel. Ghost ring or rifle sights. (I use and recommend rifle sights, but either will do)
Beads are ok but lack a little for precise work. (Slugs)

SHooting birds and clay pidgeons is a little different than defensive shooting.

I always heard that shooting a rifle was a science. Shooting a shot gun was an art. Thats true but a defensive shotgun parallels a rifle more than a bird buster.

Defensively a shotgun should be aimed. Try this: Take your shotgun and hold it to your shoulder and get a sight picture on your target. Now lower your left arm (assuming your right handed) but leave the stock against your shoulder, the butt just pivots against your shoulder. This is the stance you would take for clearing a house or the "low, ready" When you raise the gun back up your sights should align right where they were. Practice it.

always keep your shoulders square and move the gun with your body, head stays square on the shoulders also. SImilar to clearing with a handgun. The gun goes where you look so if you see a threat when the gun comes up, you're there.

I was taught to load slugs in the tube first followed by buckshot. Texas DPS does this too and the logic works for me, but you will hear a lot of different theorys on how to load and what load to use.

AS mentioned earlier, buy some bird loads and go practice, again and again and again.

Smoke

 

[Dave McCracken]

Good points, Smoke, however....

Back when the State was paying me to teach folks to shoot, I noted that the only folks that moved past bare minimum skills with a shotgun were those that shot regularly. A trap shooter who burned off a few thousand rounds a year at that stylized sport did way better than some casual shotgunner who'd shoot a few rounds of informal clays a year and some bird hunting. The crux was usage, and wingshooting and clay games is fun usage.

I can extrapolate that a "Practical" shotgunner who burns up that much ammo a year may be better prepared than a trapshooter for "Serious" work, but there's few such.

IMO, it'd be easier to train a clays shooter for "Serious" use than the reverse. And, clays and birds are lots of fun, even more than making those plates drop or ringing a gong.

The last thing you said about practice, Amen...

 

[ahadams]

Thanks guys! hmm, and thanks Smoke for your comparison with house clearing with a handgun - that helped! now I got the shotgun and I got me a box of these 'reduced recoil' loads...now I have to figure out the best way to train for them...I think the rabbit idea Dave had was a good one, but gotta find somebody who's got the time to work with me on this...not easy these days...

 

[Dave McCracken]

Glad to help, Arlin, but H was the guy with the rabbits. Credit where credit is due...

 

[Smoke]

Dave,

I won't argue your point at all. If he wants to bust clays I'll agree thats very good practice but I wouldn't endorse doing it with a HD type gun. Maybe he needs one of the 870 Express Combo guns.

Clays (or birds) and HD are two very different shooting styles needing completely different weapons. Yes, you can do either with either gun but you will have a much harder time doing it.

I am a avid bird hunter and clay buster. I was doing that long before I ever trained for personal defense. So I will most certainly agree with your points. I was just suggesting what to do if he doesn't want to or if clays arent available to him.

 

[Al Thompson]

Arlin, lots of good points here. Don't worry about reduced recoil buck or slugs yet - get the cheapest birdshot rounds you find for practice.

 

[Soap]

Books and videos help out immensely. I would recommend the shotgun manual by Suarez and the Thunder Ranch Shotgun video. I hear Jim Crew's shotgun manual is great but I haven't read it yet.

Absorb the info and dry practice as much as possible.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Smoke, a "Serious" shotgun may not be the best tool for any of the clay games, but...

Shooting a "Serious" shotgun is what makes us and the tool effective. Clay games offer lots of shooting with a coupla minor positive paybacks.

One, most folks feel kick less on a moving target. This keeps the F word(Flinching!) at bay and gets many newer shooters over a hump.

Two,shooting any clay games from Low Gun while using a "Serious" shotgun or similar is great training with short time frames,multiple targets, fast mounts,etc. A Trap Flurry with scads of targets whizzing downrange can hardly be beat for teaching steadiness under pressure, fast reloading and target acquisition.

Three, Trap,Skeet, and SC ranges are more common than "Practical" ranges, thus more available to Joe Shotgunner.

Access=more shooting=proficiency.

My 870TB weighs about as much as my HD 870, and a bit more than the one I use for deer and backup. All balance about the same, the "Chops" are identical, and so on. Expertise with one equals expertise with another,by and large.

In my first post on this thread I mentioned many roads, these are suggestions and advice, nothing graven on a Stone Tablet by a Finger of Fire.

HTH....