Training

[WardenWolf]

It's going to sound stupid, but if you want to practice shooting instinctively and on the move, try to find a CQB paintball place. The ranges are so short that the differences between paintball and the real thing really don't matter anymore. You just point and shoot.

 

[agtman]

VegasOPM:

Good point about the engineers. I think you're right. I also agree that tactical-type training, learning to fight w/ a weapon, not to mention even basic marksmanship skills, are not "static" abilities that once acquired remain at the same level: they're perishable skills in time unless renewed through sustainment training or routine practice.

BullfrogKen:

Yeah, I get your point that cops are "civilians" too.

I was simply using the term to distinguish sworn LEOs and military students in these classes from this third category ("non-LEOs"?) I meet: e.g., business people, medical techs, I.T. workers, etc. Wasn't trying to use it pejoratively ...

 

[loneviking]

BullfrogKen, sounds like you have a really nice range! I"ve never even seen a 360 shoot house and sounds like your club has quite a bit of ground for use. In fact, it sounds like the kind of club that folks would expect to be expensive. Do the residents of the area know what a bargain your club prices are?

How about rangemasters? Sometimes, shooters won't train at a range with a bunch of tyrannical rangemasters enforcing petty rules. I won't train at the Washoe range because of nonsense like that. My local range has no rangemaster, just common sense rules that most everybody can agree makes sense. I can't recall when the last accident was, but it's been quite a few years.

Just something to think about....

 

[BullfrogKen]

Mike the Wolf said: It's going to sound stupid, but if you want to practice shooting instinctively and on the move, try to find a CQB paintball place.

If that were enough, we'd see the military and police migrating to it. Paintball is a lot cheaper than buying ammo. And it's a lot easier to find an open field someplace than trying to reserve a shooting range for training. Airsoft and simunitions are making inroads as supplements to live fire training, but even those activities can't replace it.

loneviking said: How about rangemasters?

Rangemasters? Members have the combination to the gate. They come and go as they please. Unless you're participating in some sort of organized activity like IDPA or a class, you're entirely on your own here.

There are just too many gun clubs in Pennsylvania to get away with charging high prices for memberships. I said earlier I can easily name 10 area clubs. If I actually had a map and thought about it, I could probably find 20 clubs within a half hour driving distance. And that doesn't include the free public ranges at the state game lands. Considering those, add maybe 5 more places to shoot.

Simple economics keep the club membership prices all around the same rate.

We know what a value our gun club is. But it was built so we could do what we wanted to do. And it's only a value to those who find those kinds of facilities valuable. To a long range rifle shooter, 200 yards is nothing. To a Trap shooter, our trap range is substandard. To a bullseye shooter, our indoor range isn't spiffy enough.


This is not unique to our club, or this region. Most gun owners simply don't do much shooting, at all. Only a small handful seek training. Only a small handful practice enough dynamic shooting to keep those skills current. That's just the way it is.

 

[loneviking]

Gee, Ken, folks sound awfully spoiled back in your neck of the woods! If I'm ever in your area, let me have the gate combo---O.K.?

And I hope you're wrong about only a minority seeking out training, but your're probably not.

 

[possum]

My question is simple. How many of you go out and only shoot at stationary targets from a stationary position? How many of you practice shooting on the move? How many of you practice shooting at moving targets? How many of you practice other combat shooting? There is not a poll because a lot of people vote and don't post. I am asking the question because I just finished the FBI Firearms Instructor School and learned a lot of my departments policies are inadequet as far as training and liability goes. We shoot one qualification course a year, which is a joke. Personally, I shoot at least 300 rounds of ammo through the Glock 20 and 300 through the XD .45 each month because those are my two duty weapons that I alternate between. I was just wondering how often people who are not in LE actually train combat shooting. I know it has to be more than the average LEO because those are what I work with

i am an nco in the army, and infantry at that and many people think that that is "trained", they are also the same folks that think that 40/40 on the qual is good enough, and i disagree.

i seek out and train every chance that i get. not only on long guns, ie my ar which is set up like my work gun, i train on the ak series as i might have to use one if i come across one one day, and i own and am very comfortable with it. i do alot of handgun training. not because i carry a handgun in the army but because i ccw, and it is paramount that i am profecient with my handgun. i don't stop there. a warrior should be able to inflict wounds as well be able to heal them, ie me or my team member, family, bystandard is hit, that is why i am trained on medical stuff as well and carry a huge aid bag in my vehicle, and where a blow out kit on my gear, as well i am trainned and continue to train in ground fighting.

i have trained at Blackwater usa, TDI Ohio, and at Tactical response. Hopefully if the Combat focused shooting class is a go in december with Mr. Pincus then i will be there too. i have a long list of training courses, and instructers that i want to train under. and wil continue to train for the fight of my life until the day that i die.

Most of the things that are coverd in the training courses i do or have done on my own time at my range, i am lucky that i have a range that allows me to do that. there are exceptions, there are 1st that i have done at courses but it is rare. but the fact is if i learn one thing that will make me better than that is worth every penny of the course.

shooting on the move is something that i do alot, long gun and handgun, not only foward and backwards, left and right, diagonals and all that, i also do box drills, and weaver drills, as well with the handgun i do all of those with the weak hand only and strong hand only. shooting and moving to cover also. break contact drills, and when applicable buddy team drills.

why do people train or "shoot" on a square 180 degree range when we live in a 360 degree world? i have no idea.

i personally have a 3 day training plan for each of my weapon systems that i go through that covers almost everything, so every 3 times i go to the range with say my ccw it is one rotation. same with my ar and ak, and shotgun.

here is a list of the drills that i do, there are more as i have updated my list since then.

modes of fire
controlled pairs/ hammers/ singles/ fts/ alternate fts's/nsr's

lowlight
weapon mounted/ syringe/ neck index/ fbi style/ harris style (handgun)
rifle lowlight , handheld and weapon mounted techniques.

drawstroke
verbilization/ movement/ centerhold or sul/tac reload (FAST)

reloads
tac/ emergency

positions
prone/ supine/ kneeling/ monica/ sides/ seated/ standing/fetal

cover
high/ low/ over/ standing/ kneeling/ left and right/ different postions behind cover

re-engage from highready/ center hold.

ready positions
covert ready
Sul

one hand
strong/ weak/ reloads/ malfunction clearance/

malfunction drills
type 1,2,3
left, right and 2 hand

fight to your feet
2 hand, strong hand and weak hand

dot drills
shrinking dot
offhand/ one handed/ strong/weak
dea dot
modes of fire/ 21 shot drill/ rythmatic shooting/ low light/ cognative drills/ behind cover/ dot toruture drill
transition drills

multiple targets

el presidente

hostage rescue drills

moving drills
foward/ backwards/ combined/ center hold break contact/moving laterall/ diagonally/
box drills/ to and from cover/ buddy team/ weaver/ figure 8/ moving dot drills/get off the x drill

shooting from vehicle

speed drill

bill drills

retention postions
regular/ guarded/ striking

offhand shooting

ranges
0/3/5/7/10/15/25yds(handgun)
0-300yds with rifle

transition drills
regualr/ moving/ supine/ behind cover high and low/monica

reflexive fire
head shots, and body shots.

turn and shoot
left/ right/ 180 degrees, from holster and from covert ready

alternate sighting techniques

offset

dry fire drills

meu-soc pistol and rifle qual

tueller drill

as you can see from my signature line, i do everything in my power to be a "shooter" and not a mere gun owner.

 

[possum]

when i go to the range in the army we are under close scrutiny, so i go through the motions, we try to make training the best we can but it is hard to do. own my own time i am not being watched by people that don't understand.

when i go to the raneg i don't "shoot" i train. simple and as easy as that. the only thing that i do at the range that isn't training is if i am testing accuracy of reloads, and with a little work that can be made into training.

 

[agtman]

Great list, possum.

Have also taken TDI-Ohio classes. They provide excellent training on pistols, rifles and tactics, as well as having a great facility to do it at.

 

[BullfrogKen]

possum said: why do people train or "shoot" on a square 180 degree range when we live in a 360 degree world? i have no idea.

possum,

Most people just can't. They don't have the facilities. Or they've never been exposed to it before, and don't know how to do it.


loneviking,

Spoiled?

Many of us worked very hard to develop the ranges and facilities into what they are today. We still do to keep it maintained. Some give out of their own money, into the thousands of dollars, to build the shoot houses and pits. We worked hard to get the club's range rules changed, or new ones passed to allow us to properly train.


We do it for us, so we could have a suitable place for ourselves, and for anyone who wants to have a proper range to train, and to further the study of the community at large.

 

[possum]

Most people just can't. They don't have the facilities.

i understand that, what i am getting at is the people that have the facilities and ability to do it but don't. there are far to many ranges that don't allow the big boy rules.

 

[possum]

And I hope you're wrong about only a minority seeking out training, but your're probably not.

it is the minority for sure. 5% of gun owners seek out and attend training courses.

i see it all the time at the gun store near me, the guy that owns it has an indoor range there, and his dad owns an out door range about 15minutes away. there are allways people buying guns, but rarely do you see people at the range training and getting profecient with thier weapons. especially at the outdoor range where i do all of my training. i train many people from work, i always try to take a new shooter out, or someone that i am training from the ground up. i will help anyone and there is nothing i like more than training and training other people/ soldiers. if the people at the range would come up to me then i would train them too all they have to do is ask.

 

[mljdeckard]

I just did a weekend of force-on-force, room clearing, building assault, 3 and 4 man stacks, etc with my guard unit, and all it did was make me realize that it is impossible to ever do this enough times.

There is a public range in Salt Lake that only allows one round per second. I asked the range safety if he really believed it was impossible to control a gun shooting faster than that, he said yes.

 

[possum]

There is a public range in Salt Lake that only allows one round per second. I asked the range safety if he really believed it was impossible to control a gun shooting faster than that, he said yes.

wow that is all i can say about that.

 

[BullfrogKen]

possom,

From my experiences that sort of range rule is the norm, not the exception.

Some ranges and clubs simply don't like certain groups of shooters or styles of shooting, and they make rules designed to keep it out of their clubs. Hey, it's their place, and they can decide what they want on happening it. One of the large precision shooting, bullseye type competition clubs in York County has a rule that prohibits shooting on any target in the shape of a human torso. I respect their right to govern themselves how they want, and just don't go there.


Other times the rules are in place because those who made them simply concluded that since they are unable to do something safely, no one can.


I don't get all riled up about it. All it means to me is that the places that do allow those activities will attract the members the other clubs don't want. PA is big enough, and our state's view on gun ownership is conservative enough, that we are able to have plenty of diversity in our gun clubs. And if you can't find what you want, or make an existing club tolerant to what you want, you're still actually able to start a new club with relative ease.

States like Maryland on the other hand . . . . well there's a reason I moved.


I announce in the club's newsletter when the trainers coming out have classes scheduled. What's interesting is when the classes are full, over half the students attending aren't members. Sometimes they even travel in from outside the state.

Those who want it will seek it out. Those who don't make it a priority won't take it even if it's in their back yard. It's just human nature, and it's not limited to shooting. I don't get worked up about it, or shake my head over it. I make the membership aware of the club's opportunities, and spread the seed. It grows where the ground is fertile. I've found getting frustrated over gun owners who won't avail themselves of opportunities makes about as much sense as cursing fallow soil.

 

[loneviking]

Spoiled?

Yep, the bullseye shooters who look down their nose at your indoor range and call it 'inadequate'. Trap range is substandard....rifle range is too short. I've met those sort of folks, and they really amaze me. Most of 'em aren't really all that good at shooting and they are just putting on airs.

5% of all shooters go out and get further training and continue to train? Wow...I would have guessed that the number would be higher than that. Well, all I can do is keep on training and trying to drag everybody I can to the range!