Trouble at S&W and lead in bullets.

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Old Fuff

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In today's issue (Dec. 17, 2008) Shooting Wire Editor, Jim Shepard offered his views on what is going on in general concerning the sale of tactical firearms v. more traditional hunting/target shooting guns - and the situation at Smith & Wesson in particular. He also points out a trend on the part of the gun control movement to get further bans on lead bulleted ammunition.

Industry Hanging Onto A Single Category

For the past few weeks, it may be that we've given a false impression as to how well the firearms industry is really doing. The net of all the numbers is that if you're a company with a strong line of high-capacity pistols and AR-style rifles, you're doing land office business. If you're heavily dependent on hunting, you are hurting.

Some companies, unfortunately, are seeing those languishing hunting sales carve -deeply- into their bottom lines. Take, for instance, Smith & Wesson (NASDAQ:SWHC). The company's Military & Police (M&P) line of AR-style rifles and polymer pistols are facing significant back orders due to the incessant consumer demand for high-capacity pistols and military-style rifles that will likely face a resurrected "Assault Weapons Ban" in 2009.

Despite that solid performance, however, Smith simply couldn't overcome the impact that hunting-centric subsidiary Thompson/Center Arms has had on the overall corporate balance sheet. When Smith & Wesson purchased Thompson/Center Arms in 2007, it looked like a solid acquisition. As a category-leader in hunting that also had a barrel-making facility, it seemed a great fit into the S&W portfolio

Today, smart might better be applied to the stinging negative impact T/C is having on Smith & Wesson's stock price. On Monday, Smith announced the previous quarter turned from a profit to a loss after a write-down taken due to the hunting rifle business. That write-down resulted in a loss of $76.2 million- roughly $1.62 per share in the period ended October 31. Without that "impairment charge" S&W would have shown a profit of around a penny per share.

As a public company, that change brought the wrath of investors and analysts. If you're a public company, you dare not disappoint the analysts. Should that happen, they take their pound of flesh out of your stock price. And Smith & Wesson stock has been pounded, losing slightly more than thirteen percent of its opening stock price yesterday, closing at $2.32.

Despite a forty percent rise in pistol sales over last year and a demand for their M&P and Sigma line of products, there was just too-much baggage from the moribund sales of Thompson/Center products. Hunting lines lost forty-one percent, with a miserable $11.5 million in sales.

They're not unique in having the bottom drop out of their hunting product, but as a public company, they are taking their lumps pretty publicly.

Meanwhile, industry sources tell me that the glut of firearms that aren't potentially threatened by any sort of high-capacity ban are sitting idly on store shelves. Not a good sign as we move into the final week of sales before Christmas.

Another cloud lurks in an already gloomy sky. It might be said that cloud isn't black, but it's certainly lead-gray. Despite strong resistance from the industry, the assault on lead in ammunition continues.

Granted, the results from testing on wild game containing lead fragments have done anything but prove conclusively that the longstanding ingredient of ammunition is negatively effecting the health of wild game consumers, but the facts have very little to do with the argument. Anti-gun groups are quietly meeting with public health advocacy groups in Washington this week, and we're hearing they are encouraging a "combination of interests" in order to push to have lead listed as a top priority in public health issues.

If that happens, there is very little any of us can do to fight that argument. With a zero-tolerance policy, health officials are going to pay precious little attention to the fact that the evidence is, at best, thin against lead ammunition.

Some ammo makers are already making it known that they are creating ammo lines that are lead-free. Others, reliable industry sources tell us, will have announcements at SHOT Show that will make it obvious to even the most stubborn holdouts that lead is on the way out in ammunition.

Not things that contribute to a Merry Christmas. Unfortunately, the opposition to firearms have apparently bifurcated their attacks on the industry, looking to ban classes of weapons and magnitudes of ammunition.

We're listening, and we'll keep you posted.

- Jim Shepherd


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If it comes to the point where I can't shoot lead, I'll sell all my guns.
I have been eating game shot with lead for 70 years and I'm still here,
according to my wife the only problem I have with lead is in my BUTT!
Floydster:)
 
With the advancement in polymeric chemistry and what not, I see no reason why bullets can't be cast from alternative materials just as cheaply, if not cheaper than using lead. I don't quite understand why it hasn't trended that way already. Especially for FMJ.
 
The problem is that anything other than lead is either considered armor-piercing, prohibitively expensive, wears barrels out while you wait, or some combination of all of the above.

What we've got here is some Grade-A hysteria. My father, who was working as an environmental engineer, was recommending stockpiling lead 10 years ago.
 
I see no reason why bullets can't be cast from alternative materials
What alternative material is there that is as heavy as lead, and still affordable?

Nothing!

Without leads weight, a bullet would be nothing more then a funny shaped nerf-ball.

Lighter bullets made of lighter material would not shoot well in current rifling twist rates.

Or shoot as far accurately, or hit as hard.

rcmodel
 
I expect S&W will eventually come out ok from their acquisition of TC, but the I Bolt (now under recall) and Icon they brought out in ill-advised attempts to get some of the bolt action rifle market from Remington, Ruger, and Savage are certainly going to slow the process down. And the Turkish Adventure in Shotgunning is definitely going to be a drag on business.

S&W has not been able to make a go in the long gun market in several tries over the past 120 years and, except for the anomaly of the AR boom in a pre-restriction market, is no better off this time.
 
I would agree with that. The market for hunting arms is saturated. Were I running S&W, I'd be maneuvering to capitalize on the Civil War sesquicentennial.
 
Since the number of hunters supposedly declines every year it seems no surprise that the sale of hunting weaponry would as well:confused:
 
All Smith and Wesson would have to do is bring back some of their classics (Models 19, 66, 17, 34 etc) in a no-lock version and sales would go thru the roof.
Just make 'em like they were made 40 years ago and they would sell like hotcakes.
Or better yet, in addition, make all current models with the lock optional.
 
And the Turkish Adventure in Shotgunning is definitely going to be a drag on business.

Actually, of all the different Turkish guns, theirs get very good reviews on build quality, at least from shotgun reviewers.

They need to divest themselves of anything not in their core business and stop pricing things so high - JMO, YMMV
 
Well, that explains why I've been for over a month for Bud's to ship my M&P9 (and why Bud's has been waiting over a month for Smith to send it, and a lot others, to them). :rolleyes:
 
ARs will be hot for a few more years at most (if they dont get banned). Then as with hunting rifles the used market will generate most of the sales. Everyone (including me) has bought, is trying to buy, or is planning to buy a AR (ok lets just call it 90% or everyone that shoots). The market will only last so long for them.
 
Just make 'em like they were made 40 years ago and they would sell like hotcakes.
If there was a way of knowing, I'd cheerfully bet the entire contents of my hammered IRA that wouldn't happen - ever. The hand-fitted, conventional part, pinned sear examples currently cataloged already have MSRPs over 1,500.00. Add in the rest of the costly aspects of a 40 year old (or better still, an 80 year old product) and the MSRP would sail past 2,000.00 like it was tied to a post - they'd be lucky to sell a couple dozen over the deafening howl of those whining about the price. People want 1937 craftsmanship but they don't want to pay for it - might as well wish for water to flow uphill.

S&W's sales figures for a 1937-ish .357 magnum can probably be guessed at by looking at Korth's sales figures. I doubt they could keep S&W's light bill paid for 4 consecutive days.

Methinks Fuff predicted this in another thread:
... a forty percent rise in pistol sales over last year and a demand for their M&P and Sigma line of products ...
Old enough to remember Mrs. Robinson in The Graduate? "Just one word: plastics". Actually, that was Mr. McGuire, wasn't it?
;)
 
Actually, of all the different Turkish guns, theirs get very good reviews on build quality, at least from shotgun reviewers.

Shotgun reviewers don't have to pay for their guns. I don't recall having even seen a Turk and Wesson shotgun in a store.

They need to divest themselves of anything not in their core business and stop pricing things so high

Well, shotguns sure aren't their core business, as they found out years ago trying to sell rebadged Nobels, or even Howas, which are not bad guns. And as for price, I can't do better than quote Hawk: "People want 1937 craftsmanship but they don't want to pay for it"
 
If that happens, there is very little any of us can do to fight that argument. With a zero-tolerance policy, health officials are going to pay precious little attention to the fact that the evidence is, at best, thin against lead ammunition.

They can ban lead bullets all they want...lead as a resource will still be easily available for decades to come. Bullet molds are about $20...and you can melt it on your stove.

Try to ban that, suckers! :neener:
 
Two problems. Not everyone can "roll their own," and I suspect that part of the plan is to make lead bulleted ammunition illegal. Think of a situation where lead bullets were "controled" the same as illegal drugs. Yup, I know - that plan hasn't worked very well when it comes to drugs, but just the same there are a awful lot of people in jail. :uhoh:

A better answer is to make it clear to the legislators in Washington that trying to outlaw lead bullets is a sure way to become unemployed after the next election, and they should remember what happened in 1994. This is the kind of language they understand if they hear enough of it.
 
Remember that the president-elect said that he won't confiscate "hunting guns" But if lead is banned in ammo and no substitute is found, there can be no hunting, therefore no hunting guns.

So, as Feinstein said, "turn them in", rifles, shotguns, handguns, air guns, all of them, so they can be melted down and made into huge statues of the New Messiah for us to worship.

Jim
 
So, as Feinstein said, "turn them in", rifles, shotguns, handguns, air guns, all of them, so they can be melted down and made into huge statues of the New Messiah for us to worship.

Sheep get sheared.

The Doc is out now. :cool:
 
Back on topic

Thompson Centers are good guns. What might be happening is that the folks at S&W were wearing blinders to the public. Maybe they should move their operation to the midwest as opposed to way out east there. Probably been reading the New York Times too much and decided at the time that hunting guns were the way to go with the new possible president.

Well, anybody with a lick of sense could have predicted that people who like guns are afraid of loosing the right to have them and that they should have geared up for production of high-cap guns and left T-C alone and not tried to gobble them up, or at least, not put all the focus on something not really wanted at the moment.

When you look at it, T-C gives you a great hunting gun with the capacity to change from one game to another. Your scopes are always sighted in as they don't leave the barrel. You have to learn marksmanship as opposed to spray and pray since you only have that one shot. You get a solid gun that the two whizzo's on American Rifleman TV have tried to destroy various ways and really have to work at it to do that.

Yep, T-C made a good gun. S&W just needs to get its act together. People are making choices now on what to spend money on, while they still have money. Gun owners are afraid of Obama and what he might do. They want to stock up now. He says he will not go after hunting guns, but does not say anything about other guns. Which guns do you think buyers would go after?

Well, we know now. It was pretty obvious before, too. C'mon S&W. Get it together. Scrap the lock, bring back the old styles and standards, and learn to roll with the flow.

The Doc is out now. :cool:
 
To me S&W's problems are one of knowing their market well and presumably the lack of ability to capitalize on it.

Now consider this. How many S&W reps or engineers have you met personally or seen on this or other forum boards? Probably not many if at all. Also I freely state that the internet forum is not the bulk of the customers by any shot.

How many reps have you seen at your local gun store? How many do you see at the big ranges just chatting with the weekend shooters?

Not many I bet. Living in Houston and shooting at one of the biggest ranges around I have never seen one ever.

So. How does one know what to sell or what the public wants to buy? Even furthermore how does one capitalize on that information? This is really the fundamental issue that they face in my opinion.

Those of us on the boards could see that with the new admin coming in the AR's would be hot and anything "high capacity" would go like hot cakes. Conventional guns were going to be second class citizens till after the potential ban kicks in. This could have been predicted many months to nearly a year ago when the candidates firmed up. How did they react? According to the stock price not well.

To me the key is knowing your market and if you read the boards the lock has got to go, classic N frames are popular and you must compete with glock/springfield/plastic gun market.
 
Ditto: Read the Boards

Right, they should read these boards and get active on them. Know your market. The only time I have ever seen a S&W rep was at the Masters in Barry a few years back. Otherwise, I have never seen them. Why not? For that matter, why don't the other manufacturers inquire to the various gun clubs and shooting rainges across the country? Sales a matter of... what? No customer contact? Customer service via the phone? It's not the magazine writers who buy the guns. WE DO! The People.

Get with it manufacturers. Get on these boards and let us know you are here!

The Doc is on his meds now. :cool:
 
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