Trouble at the mall with my firearm

Status
Not open for further replies.
toejam, the usual site is www.handgunlaw.us.

You can also look over the PA Uniform Firearms Act, but the problem is you're looking to prove something ISN'T there, which it tough.

There is no PA law that says a sports facility is off-limits. You can be trespassed, but only if you've been told to leave and you refuse. Handcuffing? That's not going to turn out well for them if you have a good lawyer.
 
Georgia is great. We can even carry onto school grounds legally as long as we are picking up or dropping of a child who attends said school
Click to expand...

Only onto the parking lot, and the weapon can't leave your car.
 
I agree with the comment above about having your daughter go to the mall security office and asking for an escort to her car. If they do not the mall may be liable for at least allowing an unsafe work environment for their contractors employees. I have NEVER been refused an escort request; actually, our facility security have asked if I needed an escort.

IF they refuse, and someone gets accosted on their property, they (the mall) are setting themselves up for a lawsuit.

As to the request to leave... sadly, the guards were well within their rights. It sux, I know, but if they ask you to leave, then leave you must. But again, TELL YOUR KID to stop by the security office and ask for an escort. Remember, just like your limited police powers at your contractee (place wherre you do security), they have the same right, and are likely following their company and contractee's written orders. If they didn't, then were I their supervisor I'd fire them, no matter how unfair.

OTOH, re YOUR employer firing you... absolutely no way. You might get a talking to about putting our company in a bad light to the mall (and the competition) but I would understand your motives, and would prolly give you a pass as long as it didn't happen again. Bottom line - escort your kid plainclothes as a private citizen, carrying concealed if you must (as long as you have a CCW) and if SHTF you can use your "profrssional experience" before a judge (or ore likely, with the cops you may already know as part of your job)...

Remember, the SO's at the mall are just like you-paid to enforce their clients rules and regs. If you're not a contracted SO at the mall, you maybe should shun your uniform first? We had a strict policy against going to another company's client's place of biz in uniform when I did SO work... just remember, you wouldn't like a stranger poking around in a competitors uniform at your client's POB...
 
Whoever the security officer is that said a person carrying would be handcuffed and arrested is a lawsuit waiting to happen! No law was broken, only a policy.

As for security guards enforcing mall policy, its because they are acting as "agents" of the mall.
 
I wish you had replied "I see, and do you have a similar policy on knives
Click to expand...

I doubt the BG was wearing a uniform, and open carrying his knife. If he had been, I suppose the same policy would have applied. It would where I work anyway.

the OP said:
I was in uniform as I was coming from work. Act 235 allows carry to work,at work and from work legally
Click to expand...

You were going into the mall. Not to or from work.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The property owner can always refuse you admittance and trespass you if you refuse to leave.
Click to expand...
sadly, the guards were well within their rights.
Click to expand...
I agree. Until carrying a gun is recognized as a basic civil right, that will not change.

It may be that the SCOTUS (if its composition does not become anti-gun) will eventually hear a case and rule that carrying a gun (bearing, in RKBA) is a basic a civil right as owning one in your home. With such a ruling, we may get subsequent findings that a place that is open to the public can no more exclude legal gun-carriers than it can Hispanic persons or Hindus.
 
Strange situation. You may carry to your job, on your job and from your job. Were you escorting your daughter while working or after work?
 
The more I read this thread the less it seems to be a “gun” issue to me.

Maybe it’s because of my background but I see it as an issue of professional courtesy and in my experience professional courtesy dictates that I don’t show up on your security company’s site in my security company’s uniform.

As a matter of personal preference the only place I would go to while in uniform would be straight to work and straight home if I had to deviate fromn that I would change my shirt and remove my duty belt.

As I stated earlier Colorado Springs municipal ordinance prohibits licensed security officers from carrying a concealed weapon in uniform and it doesn’t specify on or off duty so that is not something I’d risk.

As stated earlier as I see it, the simplest solution to this problem would be to remove your uniform and duty belt before entering the mall.
 
As a person that OC's regularly, the first question I would ask is: If this Mall Policy? or this security guards policy?

Like PA, here in WA a sign means nothing, legally. You have to be requested to leave...however, a sign does one thing...it tell you when you are requested to leave, the request is valid.

There are a lot of people that think open carry "should" be illegal, or not allowed...and should those people happen to be in a position that some would consider an "authority" they may try to enforce their own personal bias.

I did not see anywhere that this property is posted, so, was this security guard exercising his own personal opinion? Or that of the property owner? Secondly, property that is unrestrictedly open to the general public is looked at differently in the eye of the law than a persons private abode...Don't think so? Read te ADA
 
Malls have been a sore spot for OC no matter who you are. Ever since Silvia Seacrest shot up the Springfield mall back in the 80's, malls are not gun friendly.
Your being a security guard, certified or not, won't cut any ice with mall owners, anywhere!
 
Last thought, don’t know PA law but in Colorado it is illegal for a licensed security guard to conceal a firearm while in uniform regard less of LTCF status or at least the law is grey enough that I wouldn’t do it.
Click to expand...

In Florida, it would only be prohibited if the SO was on duty. I see very few off-duty SOs in uniform; most of those (who are armed on duty) I have seen have either removed their sidearms, or their entire duty rig. I bet at least some of them were otherwise carrying.
 
Use your CCW the way it was intended, keep it concealed and don't say anything or try to make a statement by showing. I technically violate the policies of private property all the time simply because I don't see the signs.
 
The company I work for requires that we arrive at and depart our post in uniform. That being said, as I remember during training for my "G" licence, Armed guards are not allowed to wear their duty belt to and from work. I would think the company the OP works for would have a policy on that. I also remember that during training, the instructors kept reenforcing the fact that a security guard is not a cop so open carry off your duty post is not allowed while in uniform.
 
I have worked off and on in private security for many years. If the O.P. had pulled that stunt where I am licensed his firearms permit would be yanked. The law is simple; carrying to and from work and while on duty. The police don't have any issues with stopping at the local shop-n-rob for gas but that is it.

I can only wonder what your employer thinks of the image your portraying by using your uniform and firearm off the job. For that fact I wonder also.

If your intention is to frighten robbers away with your uniform then you don't need a gun.

If you believe another armed robbery is likely to occured then legally packing out of uniform will avoid causing embarassment to your employer and not put your Private Police Permit in risk.

The last thing you need and your employer wants is your swaggering across the parking packing heat.
 
The mall in question may be within its rights to prohibit carry on its premises but I'd find out if it is, as another post said, mall policy or that guard's policy. If its only that guards policy then a formal complaint should be filed. If it is mall policy I'd ask if that applied to other guards that come onto the property. Does the mall require the Brink's guards to leave thier guns in the truck when making pickups at the mall? I would make quite a stink if they didn't have to and I did. That's simply discrimination.

HTML: 
I would be a little concerned if a representative of another security company showed up on my site in uniform and armed

Why?!!! I've worn my police uniform into many other towns and that's not a problem. I also don't have any problem with other cops wearing thier uniforms in my town. Why should it be a problem for security guards?


HTML: 
He said the head of security told him that is someone was armed (With a permit or not) they would be handcuffed and arrested immediately.

That sounds like a lawsuit to me. On top of that, I'd never let anyone other than a real cop handcuff or restrain me in any way and I'd suggest you don't either.

As far as a guard taking your gun, that would be illegal in my state as he has no authority to do so and, depending on the circumstances, could easily be charged as transferring a firearm without a permit, a felony for both of us. And, if the guard didn't have a carry permit, he'd be in unlicensed possesion of a firearm, another felony.
 
c1ogden said:
Why?!!!
Click to expand...

Trunk Monkey said:
I would be a little concerned if a representative of another security company showed up on my site in uniform and armed especially one acting in a manner that could very easily be construed as acting as an agent of the property owner, such as escorting one of the employees of the mall to her car.
Click to expand...

If you take my statement in context including the bolded part it becomes self explanatory.

As a security officer I am acting as an agent of the property owner and an empowered to enforce the property owner’s rules and policies on his property.

Most security companies that I have any experience with absolutely forbid their employees from working any type of side job in the company uniform because of the implied liability. The OP is walking around a mall for all intents and purposes acting as an agent of the property owner which he is not. Now even if that wasn’t his intent that’s how it looks to the casual observer.

c1ogden said:
I've worn my police uniform into many other towns and that's not a problem. I also don't have any problem with other cops wearing thier uniforms in my town. Why should it be a problem for security guards?
Click to expand...


In Colorado if you are a POST certified peace officer anywhere in the state you are a POST certified police officer everywhere in the state. There is no such thing as off duty or out of your jurisdiction. This does not hold true for a security officer my authority (which is limited to enforcing company policy not laws) begins and ends at the property line.

Most companies I’m familiar with don’t have a problem with you stopping for gas or a soda or a pack of smokes going to or from work but to go out of your way to go to a mall to escort someone to their car (I.E to act as a security guard)? Or even to go shopping in a mall?

No.

Again, the problem ends when the uniform comes off
 
If its only that guards policy then a formal complaint should be filed.
Click to expand...

Even if it isn't the malls policy, they won't go against the security guard in this situation.

If it is mall policy I'd ask if that applied to other guards that come onto the property. Does the mall require the Brink's guards to leave thier guns in the truck when making pickups at the mall?
Click to expand...

The Brinks guards are on the job if they are making a pickup. They, and all that goes with them, have been invited onto the property to do their job. That isn't the same as some guy stopping to pick someone up... unless they are a PPO, in which case they should be operating with the knowledge of the mall.. that wasn't the case here.


I would make quite a stink if they didn't have to and I did. That's simply discrimination.
Click to expand...

So what if it's discriminating? Last time I checked, off duty security guards weren't a protected class.
I'd never let anyone other than a real cop handcuff or restrain me in any way and I'd suggest you don't either.
Click to expand...

You resist a security officer who is lawfully detaining you down here and it's a felony. A real quick end to your career as a law enforcement officer.
 
It's the same story here in arizona too! Private property trumps permits every time. I simply don't do business with establishments that are posted, and then I take the liberty to post on a web site we have in our state. Believe it or not, it has caused some business's to take down their " guns prohibited" signs and make public that they do allow us to carry inside such establishments. One such establishment that changed their gun policy is a well known and nation wide coffee house. You know who I'm referring to.
GS
 
This has been covered, but..Private Property. IF they don't want you carrying, they have that right. Conceal or don't go there at all for any reason.

TITAN308 said:
Georgia is great. We can even carry onto school grounds legally as long as we are picking up or dropping of a child who attends said school

Like other states, signs don't mean crap in this state.
Click to expand...

Georgia carry laws are NOT great. Until a few years ago they were pretty terrible. They are currently "acceptable".

.
 
Per ACT235, you can ONLY carry from your place of residence to your place of employment. No sleeping over a friends house, or running an errand. ACT 235 is really restrictive. As long as you are in uniform, you will have a hard time making a case for your CCW instead of your 235. Where is the mall? If you were in or near Philadelphia , your lucky the guards didn't )call the police. (Especially Philadelphia police.
 
If you were in or near Philadelphia , your lucky the guards didn't )call the police. (Especially Philadelphia police.
Click to expand...

We've had Philadelphia police detain officers and confiscate their weapons while they were in their cars driving home from the job.
 
ClickClick said:
We've had Philadelphia police detain officers and confiscate their weapons while they were in their cars driving home from the job.
Click to expand...

Confiscate as in disarm for the duration of the stop or confiscate as in confiscate?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top