Trouble working w/124g HBFB

[VrockTDSaz]

Trying to work up some paper punching round for 3 different small 9mms. Bullet is berrys 124gr hollow base flat point. Problems are as follows:

In order of frustration

1. OAL: Hodgdon says 1.150 for this bullet, which seems pretty long to me. 1.130 to 1.135 is about max for my Glock26 as tested by the drop in method. I think I would feel better at around 1.120 as it needs to go through some other pistols.

2. Powder. I have HS-6, 700x, Tightgroup, Enforcer, and Power Pistol. Which would be best for an easy shooting light load?

3. Load suggestions?

My plan was to use 700x, 3.7gr, at 1.13 OAL

Thanks,

Vince

 

[sexybeast]

1. OAL: Hodgdon says 1.150 for this bullet, which seems pretty long to me. 1.130 to 1.135 is about max for my Glock26 as tested by the drop in method. I think I would feel better at around 1.120 as it needs to go through some other pistols.

2. Powder. I have HS-6, 700x, Tightgroup, Enforcer, and Power Pistol. Which would be best for an easy shooting light load?

3. Load suggestions?

My plan was to use 700x, 3.7gr, at 1.13 OAL

Well you started out right by finding out the OAL that your barrels will take. That was problem number 1, not for the load data. I've only used Titegroup of the powders you listed. 700x would not meter well through my powder measure in that small of an amount.
What bullet are you using? I re-read your question. It kinda matters for load data

 

[VrockTDSaz]

Berrys 124gr HBFP. I edited the question to include it. And I see what your saying about the 700x. I'm using the Hornady LnL case activated powder drop and it doesn't seem to be metering well.

 

[sexybeast]

Berrys 124gr HBFP. I edited the question to include it. And I see what your saying about the 700x. I'm using the Hornady LnL case activated powder drop and it doesn't seem to be metering well

Good bullets. I know many who use them. I did until I figured out how to load lead in 9mm. Also used a lot of Rainier. I like those hollow bases.
Once you have your OAL down for all three of your guns, start out with 3.7gr of titegroup. You will probably be OK with this. I was using 3.9gr and it worked well too. If you set the bullet deeper in theory the pressure goes up but with light loads this does not matter much [In my opinion] Others will/may disagree.

 

[1SOW]

The best running load for that bullet in a CZ 75 has been @1.065" at about 130PF . Czs have a tight chamber, but the 124 HBFN would load some longer, but ran better short.
This was with VV n320 or Win 231.
I like the bullet.

 

[LiveLife]

1. OAL: Hodgdon says 1.150 for this bullet, which seems pretty long to me. 1.130 to 1.135 is about max for my Glock26 as tested by the drop in method. I think I would feel better at around 1.120 as it needs to go through some other pistols.

Using published OAL/COL won't ensure your rounds will reliably function in your pistol and determining OAL/COL shouldn't be a guessing game. Determine the shortest length that will pass the barrel drop test which is your max OAL/COL and then determine the working OAL/COL by feeding/chambering from the magazine and releasing the slide without riding it. Often, it is the same as max OAL/COL but sometimes it is shorter. Once you determine the length that works reliably for all the pistols, this is the working OAL/COL you want to conduct powder work up with.

2. Powder. I have HS-6, 700x, Tightgroup, Enforcer, and Power Pistol. Which would be best for an easy shooting light load?

PowerPistol, HS-6 and Enforcer are slower burn rate pistol powders and may not burn efficiently at light load range to reliably cycle the slide or produce accuracy - http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

700x and Titegroup are faster burn rate powders better suited for lighter loads but as others posted, 700x won't meter as well as Titegroup. So I would suggest Titegroup.

3. Load suggestions?

Hodgdon recently added load data for Berry's plated bullets under "BERB". The bullet used is HBRN but you should be able to use the start charge for HBFP for your powder work up. Make 10 rounds of each and start at 3.6 gr then 3.8 gr. Since you are using shorter OAL/COL, 3.6 - 3.8 gr may work for you. - http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

124 gr BERB HBRN Titegroup 1.150" Start 3.6 gr (957 fps) 27,700 PSI - Max 4.1 gr (1057 fps) 32,700 PSI

 

[VrockTDSaz]

Ok, I'm going with Tightgroup at 3.6, working up from there. Found out that 1.130 is way to long in my Shield 9mm. I chambered a dummy round and the bullet got pushed back to 1.120. Checked it with a plunk and 1.120 seems to be max OAL with the bullets. So, to be on the safe side I'm going to load these up at 1.118. Edit: At 1.118 they pass the test in my G26, SR9c and Shield 9mm.

Now to get my LnL AP to seat to a consistent depth. For some reason it'll seat fine when I'm setting up the seating die. I.e. when I'm only seating. But when I add sizing into the mix, it starts seating shallower. When the ram is at the top the case isn't going as deep into the seating die when there is a case also in the sizing die. Stations 1 and 4. I may just lube the cases; that seems to help.

 

[sexybeast]

Now to get my LnL AP to seat to a consistent depth. For some reason it'll seat fine when I'm setting up the seating die. I.e. when I'm only seating. But when I add sizing into the mix, it starts seating shallower. When the ram is at the top the case isn't going as deep into the seating die when there is a case also in the sizing die. Stations 1 and 4. I may just lube the cases; that seems to help

Well first off I don't have a Lock n Load. When you made up your dummies didn't you size them first? You load your dummies the same you load live rounds minus primer and powder.
The way I set up AOL is to have all three barrels handy. Size and set/crimp a bullet in the case. Do the "plunk" test in each. If its too long then turn the knob for deeper setting and crank the handle. Test again. Do so till the bullet drops into each barrel. This way you will also find the barrel where OAl has to be shortest. Something to know.
When you are done with this your bullet set/crimp die is done. You last adjustment is where you stop. Adjust for powder and start loading.
Make at least twenty of each .2gr apart. and test. Bench rest at 35feet or so and do so on a seperate target. You are not only looking for function but for accuracy.
This is the way I do it.

 

[VrockTDSaz]

Well first off I don't have a Lock n Load. When you made up your dummies didn't you size them first? You load your dummies the same you load live rounds minus primer and powder.
The way I set up AOL is to have all three barrels handy. Size and set/crimp a bullet in the case. Do the "plunk" test in each. If its too long then turn the knob for deeper setting and crank the handle. Test again. Do so till the bullet drops into each barrel. This way you will also find the barrel where OAl has to be shortest. Something to know.
When you are done with this your bullet set/crimp die is done. You last adjustment is where you stop. Adjust for powder and start loading.
Make at least twenty of each .2gr apart. and test. Bench rest at 35feet or so and do so on a seperate target. You are not only looking for function but for accuracy.
This is the way I do it.

It's a progressive, so when a case is in the seating die, there is another case in the sizing die. This is causing longer OALs as the case in the seating die isn't going in deep enough. I think the case in the sizing die is somehow keeping the case in the seating die from going all the way up. This is after it's set and locked in. Lubing the cases going into the sizing die seemed to help.

 

[sexybeast]

I know its a progressive and I think you may have it set up wrong. If you are getting different OAL's depending if other cases are on other stations then something is very wrong.
I think you may need to stop and go back a few steps.

Edit: Like I said I do not have and have never used a LNL. I have friends that do and they like them.
With or without cases on other stations the set/crimp die should set the bullet to the same depth everytime.
You may need help with someone who knows this press better than I.

 

[VrockTDSaz]

I know its a progressive and I think you may have it set up wrong. If you are getting different OAL's depending if other cases are on other stations then something is very wrong.
I think you may need to stop and go back a few steps.

Edit: Like I said I do not have and have never used a LNL. I have friends that do and they like them.
With or without cases on other stations the set/crimp die should set the bullet to the same depth everytime.
You may need help with someone who knows this press better than I.

I'll pull the dies apart, clean them, and start from scratch. I need to redo the set up anyway since i'm switching to a different powder and OAL.

 

[germ]

Everyone eventually figures out that you have to have a full shell plate when setting up dies in progressives. Otherwise you will endlessly chase settings. It's just the nature of the beast. It's not an LNL thing either, to the best of my knowledge all progressives exhibit this behavior. Think, equalizing the load on the plate.

 

[sexybeast]

Everyone eventually figures out that you have to have a full shell plate when setting up dies in progressives. Otherwise you will endlessly chase settings. It's just the nature of the beast. It's not an LNL thing either, to the best of my knowledge all progressives exhibit this behavior. Think, equalizing the load on the plate.

Equalizing the load on the plate? The plate does not flex like that. I have never heard this before and I run through single rounds all the time. I know others too when they check every station with just one round.
Sorry, no buy. He needs some help from someone who has a LNL. No guesses please.

 

[Walkalong]

For rounds that I crimp in a second step with, if it is anything over a light crimp, ans especially a heavy crimp, setting up the seater with no crimping going on can be as much as .005 shorter that when I am actually running the press and the crimping is going on. So there is a little stretch going on when crimping. This is expanding, seating, and crimping, with no sizing going on. I adjust the seater for the first round seated (No crimping going on yet.), and then re-adjust it .001 to .005 as needed for the rest of the run. How much depends on the particular load and amount of crimp going on. Again, this is with no sizing going on.

There is definitely some flex going on. This is with an LNL.

Sizing is much more strenuous than any other operation and I have no doubt it affects other things as well, and so an OAL could easily be different when sizing at the same time vs not sizing while seating.

 

[sexybeast]

Well there you have it. But this destroys my idea of ever getting a LNL.
When I was using a Lee factory crimp die I would notice a very small additional setting of the bullets on the last station but you could replicate it using just one case on the shell plate or five cases on the shell plate. It always happened from "set" station to "crimp' station.
The bullet does not "set" additonal now with only a taper crimp.

 

[wlkjr]

I agree about the minute differences in setting up an empty shellplate and a full one. My OAL's differ but not much more than about 3 thousandths, and that's not very much. I'm using a Dillon 650.
As far as powder, 3.6 grains of Titegroup with a 124 gr. Xtreme HP work good in all three of my Glocks, 17,19, and 26 and give good accuracy. My OAL for this load is 1.110 to 1.120, although I can load longer. Less than 3.6 and the 19 and 26 don't always function well. I have some HS6 but haven't loaded it for 9mm yet.

 

[sexybeast]

I agree about the minute differences in setting up an empty shellplate and a full one. My OAL's differ but not much more than about 3 thousandths, and that's not very much. I'm using a Dillon 650.

You know this still bothers me. When the sizing die comes down or the shell plate come up [whichever your press does] the die should be coming in contact with the plate with enough pressure/force to keep everything consistent even without a case on the plate. I have my shell plate/press set up like this and it sizes completly and the plate coming up and hitting the die stops it in the same exact spot everytime.
Something for some of you with this press to try.

 

[Walkalong]

Metal flexes. .005 or less is a very small figure. It is not unrealistic to think a press and shell plate set up could flex that much. If folks do lots of measurements of different things, they will realize there is flex present.

Besides, a spread of .005 in an OAL is not unusual at all, although some bullet/seater plug combinations will do better.

 

[germ]

I'm not guessing, I have an LNL.

"Different is not the same, only the same is the same." --Fred Picker (photographer)

If you are going to run only one case at a time, then by all means set your dies up that way. If you're going to run it with a full plate, then by all means set your dies up that way. Anything else is akin to beating your head against the wall. You can theorize and fight it all you want, won't bother me one bit. As I said in my first post "Everyone eventually figures out...".

One more pointer. Using one of those tools that measure oal from the ogive will reduce varying measurements due to inconsistent bullet tip length. Doing so can help to reduce one's anxiety over such things.

Good luck.

 

[sexybeast]

Walkalong: My point was that he would load/set rounds without sizing and they would not chamber. The OAL became too long, this is more than .005/inch. Then he is having more flex than that.
I still think something is wrong with his set up.

 

[Walkalong]

I'm not guessing either, and was answering the why is it different question, which you addressed as well.

Set stuff up like your going to run it for consistency.

It's not an LNL thing either, to the best of my knowledge all progressives exhibit this behavior.

I agree.

 

[Walkalong]

Walkalong: My point was that he would load/set rounds without sizing and they would not chamber. The OAL became too long, this is more than .005/inch. Then he is having more flex than that.
I still think something is wrong with his set up.

Dunno. I have lost track of all the questions.

 

[VrockTDSaz]

I am not crimping when I seat. Crimp is a separate step. The target OAL is 1.115, and I am hitting that number when just seating . I'm getting up to 1.125 when the plate is full. I think the .010 difference is fairly significant. So I readjusted the seating die to give me the depth i want with a full plate. It's still not very consistent, but within my tolerance. I think maybe the Lee seating die stem may not like these bullets. I don't know.

 

[germ]

One thing that could possibly make life a smidgen easier is use of a seating die with micro adjust. Set up with an empty plate and then back off the differential amount, .010 in your case. May not be perfect but will put you right in the ball park.

If you can get hold of a comparator to at least try out, you will likely find that your oal's are not quite as inconsistent as you are now seeing measuring from the bullet tip. If you were to measure the oal of a set of 10-20 cartridges from the tip in your usual fashion and then from the ogive with the comparator, I have no doubt you'll find much greater variance in the tip measurements than the ogive. Understanding the theory is one thing, experiencing it for yourself makes it real.