Truth about muscle memory.

[coolluke01]

When I talk about muscle memory I mean the control needed to bring the sights in line with a target without needing excess movement.
I find that if I don't shoot for a few weeks it takes a few hundred rounds to get back to where I was.
I think the consensus, or what i'm going to believe, is that muscle memory can only be maintained for one gun. Any other gun will take that little bit of time to reacquaint yourself with where it points. Not that this can't be done, but it will take some time. For some people more than others and for more time to get to different levels of proficiency.
This is one reason I like shooting Glocks. Shoot one and you've shot them all.
I must say that when I posted this I thought that statement of only one gun to muscle memory was BS.

 

[Bobson]

Seems like there are two schools of thought.

"Master one platform"
and
"Be proficient with multiple platforms."

Not necessarily. IMO its great to practice with a wide array of weapons and types of weapons. I just think the focus (and carry piece) should be limited to one firearm - preferably the same one.

 

[Chindo18Z]

I believe that people can develop and retain "muscle memory" with multiple firearms.

I would say that I have a lifetime of well developed muscle memory with several different weapons: AR, AK, M1911, M9, and any duty sized S&W revolver (K,L, or N).

By this I mean that my hands and eyes do the walking with little conscious thought. Clear, Load, Present, Aim, Fire, Malfunction Drill, Make Safe, Reload, Assembly/Disassembly...it all streams from thousands of hours of practice, carry, and employment.

When I pick up a SIG handgun, the same facility is not there. I don't have nearly the same level of carry/trigger time with SIGs. I know how to operate one, but the fluidity just isn't there. And if you watched me shoot a SIG, it would show.

The same could be said for many other weapon types I own or have tried. I can operate them all...but not at the same fluid level of performance as the ones I really know well.

People posses the ability to expertly wield more than just one mechanical device...whether that device is an automobile, a hand tool, a set of chef's knives, or a firearm.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Train on just one gun?

What makes you think you're going to get to fight with your own gun? Your fight will be what it is, not what you expect.

Train with as many guns as you can. Most of the expertise (draw/presentation, flash sight picture, "surprise" trigger release, follow-through/recovery, etc) transfers from pistol to pistol. However, one skill that is likely to suffer as you switch weapons is point shooting.

Most other "problems" simply stem from the fact that if you practice x hours divided between multiple guns, you can't practice that same x hours on one gun; and more practice is better than less.

I suspect that most of us train on pistol AND rifle AND shotgun; why not just pistol, to develop better muscle memory?

 

[iLikeOldgunsIlikeNewGuns]

^^ ^^

+1

 

[Shawn Dodson]

However, one skill that is likely to suffer as you switch weapons is point shooting.

Manipulation skills suffer - especially during a critical incident when the shooter is outside of his/her confort zone - mentally, emotionally, psychologically.

 

[JohnKSa]

...or physiologically. I agree.

I can switch between the two with 3 practised draws. After that I can draw with my eyes closed and have the sights lined up upon opening them.

The question is, if you're awakened in the middle of the night by the sound of your door breaking down and grab your nightstand gun, will you have time for "3 practised draws"? Or will you revert to whichever gun you were shooting last? The one you've shot the most? The one that feels the most natural to you?

I find that if I don't shoot for a few weeks it takes a few hundred rounds to get back to where I was.

This makes it sound like you're trying to shoot a gun that doesn't fit you. There's a wide enough variety on the market (including guns with interchangeable grips/backstraps, etc. that you should be able to find a gun that points well for you without having to shoot a few hundred rounds through it before you can bring it up and already be on target.

 

[Red Cent]

Are you guys attempting to say that you can be as adept with five handguns as you can be with one? BS.


As far reaching as the sub conscious can be, it is ridiculous to believe that if you concentrate on one device, you can easily do as well with five devices.

The Olympic skier would do well with practicing ice skating..

 

[coolluke01]

I can get the sight picture ok, it's just that I get out of my grove and i'm not as fast when speed shooting if I haven't shot for awhile. I just say this to show that it takes some time to get back into that frame of mind.
Also comparing shooting and driving a car or operating other devices is not apples to apples. Shooting a gun well takes fine motor skills. It requires you to bring the gun up to the same point with no frame of reference other than your muscles. Unless you spend time trying to find the sights, which slows you down.

 

[JohnKSa]

It requires you to bring the gun up to the same point with no frame of reference other than your muscles.

Not just your muscles, it's your whole hand/wrist/arm/shoulder system, including bones, tendons and ligaments AND muscles.

Again, if you pick a gun that fits you well, you shouldn't have to WORK to get the sights to come up on target, it should happen pretty naturally. If you're having to expend "a few hundred rounds" to "bring the sights in line with a target without needing excess movement" then it sounds like you're using a gun that doesn't really fit you well and that mandates that you expend time and ammo training your hand/wrist/arm/shoulder system to compensate for the way the gun points in your hands.

I have a few guns (including my nightstand gun) that come up with the sights where they should be almost automatically. Not because I spend range time training myself to make it happen but because I SELECTED those guns specifically because they worked very well for my particular hand/wrist/arm/shoulder system.

I have other guns that I enjoy shooting but that don't work like that for me. I suppose I could, via the expenditure of practice time, manage to train myself so that those guns would work for me, but why would I want to do that when I can simply pick guns that already fit me well and don't require that I train myself to compensate for their poor fit?

 

[coolluke01]

You're right there are many things that come into play.
The gun I use does point naturally and I don't have to shoot hundreds of rounds to get the sight picture right. i'm just not as fast transitioning from target to target.

I would venture to say that no gun truly points truly naturally. But that we have learned behavior that fits certain guns better than others.
If a gun points naturally then there would never be a need for muscle memory.

 

[JohnKSa]

If a gun points naturally then there would never be a need for muscle memory.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying. If you find a gun that fits you well, then taking a proper grip and bringing it up to eye level is about all you need to do to get the sights on target.

It's like having a shotgun that's fitted to you. You don't have to work/practice to get things to line up, they line up because the fit is right.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Manipulation skills suffer - especially during a critical incident when the shooter is outside of his/her confort zone

Supposing this is true (and unless one regularly practices "outside his/her comfort zone"--whatever that means--with a timer and records each session, how would one know?)...

So what?

Does that mean we should not ever practice revolver reloads? Goodbye J-frame? Not practice with rifle and shotgun (tube magazine shotguns are a bear to reload quickly--my personal nemesis!)?

I mean, taken to its logical (no, not ad absurdum, logical) extreme, one should carry one handgun; one "exactly like it" as a back-up (if that's desired), and you're done. Deflecting practice time to anything else will degrade manipulation skills on the gun you'll need in an emergency.

Unless you're willing to do that, then we are all just talking about how much time to devote to other guns, understanding that that may hurt our manipulation skills with our primary. That is, what's the right balance?

And questions of balance belong to the individual.

It's like having a shotgun that's fitted to you. You don't have to work/practice to get things to line up, they line up because the fit is right.

I think this may be an incorrect analogy. Shotguns have a point of contact with the head (actually, it's a contact area rather than a point), and a long sighting plane that "automatically" comes into play when the gun is mounted. It makes sense that with enough practice, you can get the gun to "turn with your head" as you shoot: same register each time. Then "fit" is what allows you to obtain this register natrually, each time you mount.

Perhaps a better question: how often do you "point shoot" with your shotgun, meaning from the hip, without sighting down the barrel? What is that muscle memory like?

With handguns, there is no connection between head and gun. Stance will greatly affect your natural point of aim. Do point-shooters practice point-shooting around barricades? From the ground, "wounded"? Weak hand only? Weak eye only?

I do practice point shooting, with all these conditions. What that leaves me with is a knowledge of my effective range point shooting...which, as it turns out, varies little with the different guns I try. I understand that others are more gifted than I, and/or decide to devote more time to this skill.

 

[JohnBT]

I know when I go out to eat I can't get the food in my mouth because the fork isn't precisely like the one I use at home. I get food on my chin and my nose and even poke myself in the eye every so often. Is this due to muscle memory too?

 

[DM~]

A little while ago I ran across a post where someone stated that you can only have muscle memory for one gun.
Opinions? Even better, facts?
I've owned several different handguns, but i've always sold them when I move to a different handgun. I haven't had experience going back and forth much.
I can see where you may be able to pick it back up after a few rounds, but i'm asking if we can switch from one gun to the next without a relearning period.

This is the exact reason i, as a revolver shooter, don't feel handicapped up against a guy with a semiauto. I've been shooting revolvers as my primary weapon since the 70's, even though i've owned and fired semiauto's from time to time. When i pick up my revolver, it feels like part of me, and i've fired thousands of rounds on targets all the way out to 200 yards...

As you get older, it's even MORE important to stay with one type/style/firearm/grips, that is if you want to stay on top of your game!

DM

 

[holdencm9]

You can certainly have muscle memory for more than one gun. I play trombone, guitar, and baritone, and all require different and very technical muscle memory. I would say this type of different and specialized muscle memory correlates well with different and specialized guns.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. However, would you not be slightly more proficient with trombone if you focused on it 100%, and ignored the guitar and baritone? To me, the multiple-instrument concept is similar to the pistol/rifle/shotgun concept. All very different, but you can be proficient with all three. You can also be a master of all 3, but it takes a LOT of effort and/or inherent natural skill. So like there are musical prodigies, there are probably pistol prodigies. But the rest of us have to work at it

That said, across pistol platforms, I consider different pistols like different guitars. I can play MY guitar pretty well: all sorts of chords, progressions, arpeggios, etc. without even looking OR thinking about what my fingers are doing. That is like your pistol that you primarily train with. I can go to guitar center and pick up just about any guitar they have and play the same songs, but the slight differences may wreak havoc on a difficult chord at an inopportune time. That F#maj7 that is second nature at home, and I don't even think about, could be a pain to do on a different guitar, and would take some focus. It is essentially the same, but my "feel" is not quite there. And just like pistols, some guitars just fit me better than others. So I guess, my moral, is don't play a gig with a brand new unfamiliar guitar, and don't take a new unfamiliar weapon to a SD situation. YMMV

 

[Ankeny]

Are you guys attempting to say that you can be as adept with five handguns as you can be with one? BS.

Depends on how you want to define "adept". Maybe not a number like five guns, but there are many competition shooters who can do very well indeed across multiple platforms as can be seen in the case of back-to-back nationals, Steel Challenge, and so forth.

If I were to go out right now and do a cold and on demand drill like a Bill Drill or a Mozambique Drill, there wouldn't be enough difference between using a Glock or using a 1911 to be worth discussing. In fact, the type of holster would make a bigger difference that the gun.

 

[Sam1911]

Depends on how you want to define "adept". ...

If I were to go out right now and do a cold and on demand drill like a Bill Drill or a Mozambique Drill, there wouldn't be enough difference between using a Glock or using a 1911 to be worth discussing. In fact, the type of holster would make a bigger difference that the gun.

Right, but if you were at the very top of your game with one or the other -- say you'd been practicing heavily with the Glock for a month in preparation for a big match -- certainly there WOULD be a difference in your times between the two guns, correct?

While superlative adjectives are hard to quantify )) you could perhaps be "proficient" with multiple handguns, but only "adept" with one. Or do you disagree?

 

[Loosedhorse]

but only "adept" with one

I think you can be "adept" with as many guns as you put the required time in. Those who train for 3-gun or NRA RF/CF/.45 Bull's eye matches--and those who win them--are they adept with only one of the three?

It is very true that time is limited, and for most of us that means more practice time with Gun A equals less with Gun B. How "good" do you have to get with Gun A before you can "spare some extra time" to get better with Gun B?

Balance.

 

[Sam1911]

are they adept with only one of the three?

As I said, superlatives are hard to quantify. Maybe they are "adept" with all three. But they exhibit their pinnacle of skill with one. "Mastery" then? Pick a term that seems to fit.

Balance, is indeed a good way to describe it. Balance requires that what is at one end of the beam descends to meet the level of whatever is at the other end, which is rising. Increasing time spent dedicated to all may raise the fulcrum point (to continue the analogy). The concept of diminishing returns also plays a part.

 

[JJE]

I ran into this problem when I realized that the standard grip I use with all semi-autos and large revolvers doesn't work with revolvers with small grip frames (642 and SP101). For these small revolvers I use the "left thumb wrapped around the back of the right hand" grip. When I would do dry-fire with the small revolvers, I would sometimes start to form the standard grip, and then have to correct it. Unacceptable!

Then I realized that what I absolutely have to be able to do is to draw to a 1-handed retention position in the worst case scenario of an attacker(s) at contact range. I only have to form a 2-handed grip in the better-case scenario of the attacker(s) being so far away that I have no fear of my draw being interfered with or of being disarmed. In the latter case, I'm not running on muscle memory because the threat is far enough away that I have time to think about my grip.

So by default, I draw every SD gun exactly the same way - clear cover garment, form grip, draw to retention, slide finger onto trigger face. This gets me to the point where I can fire if necessary. I only use revolvers or semiautos with no manual safeties, so every gun is manipulated exactly the same way up to the point where it is pointed at the threat and ready to fire. I can do this without really thinking about it because it's always the exact same sequence with any of the guns i use for SD. I may get a nice 1911 or Hi-Power some day, but it'll be a target gun only because it doesn't work the exact same way - it has the extra step of manipulating the safety.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Supposing this is true (and unless one regularly practices "outside his/her comfort zone"--whatever that means--with a timer and records each session, how would one know?)...

A timer doesn't recreate the stress of a critical incident. It's easy to be overwhelmed by a welter of menacing/dangerous stimuli, dealing with an unfamiliar situation as it quickly unfolds, surprise, deception, etc. The greater stimuli increases the brain's mental load and slows the defender down as he's forced to use conscious, deliberate, analytical decision-making processes - including weapon manipulations. Indeed there may be indecision and hesitation caused when the shooter's "muscle memory" doesn't match the weapon in his hand. More weapons means more decision-making and more opportunity for mistakes, hesitation, indecision, etc.

It's about efficiency. My primary carry pistol is a Glock 19. When I have to compromise my secondary choices are a Kahr PM-9 or a Seecamp 32. The Glock and Kahr have the same exact manual of arms. Everything I do with the Glock carries directly over to the Kahr. Whereas the Seecamp is different (the magazine release on the heel of the grip, there is no slide lock, and I cannot manipulate the slide in the same manner as I do the two others (slingshot versus overhand)).

But when I make the decision to shoot all I have to do is press the trigger. If it doesn't shoot when I press the trigger the manipulations to clear the stoppage are identical for both the Glock and Kahr. The Seecamp is different and because it's different I'm not as efficient in quickly clearing stoppages.

 

[jon86]

A little about "muscle memory." I wrestled in high school. We learned hundreds of moves, and each perfected 20 or 30. We didn't rely on one glorious move to take care of every situation. I work out now. Squats, Hack Squats, Romanian Deadlifts, Straight Leg deadlifts, Lunges, and Front Squats all require different "muscle memory" to perform. You must squeeze different muscles to get the most out of each exercise, yet they all work the muscles of the lower body. You can absolutely learn to run multiple weapons.

 

[Loosedhorse]

A timer doesn't recreate the stress of a critical incident.

No. But as speed is an important metric of SD "performance", a timer would help keep track of your efficiency over a course of fire with different weapons, or with the same weapon as practice accumulates.

More weapons means more decision-making.

True. I often have on me a gun, a second gun, a knife, a cell phone and a flashlight. Sometimes a kubotan or pepperspray. That means a lot of decisions to be made. Should I dump some of these items, to narrow my choices and aid my efficiency?

I don't think the answer is, "Yes." In a real encounter, just a gun will not fit all needs. So there will have to be decisions.

But when I make the decision to shoot all I have to do is press the trigger. If it doesn't shoot when I press the trigger the manipulations to clear the stoppage are identical for both the Glock and Kahr.

Similarly, if I decide to shoot with the Seecamp, all I have to do is pull the trigger. If it jams, a tap-rack-reacquire may set it right--just like a bigger gun. If that doesn't work, well, it is a small pistol without a slide lock...so, might be time to dump it and access my next weapon.

As I said, the Seecamp has limitations. When I carry it, I accept those, and plan around them. And most often, I don't carry it.

"Mastery" then?

Well, we could of course define a skillset. There'd likely be one for competence, and one for mastery. Some of us will be fine with competence with several guns rather than mastery of one, or two.

But I am reminded of "Mindset, Skillset, Toolset." In some ways, we seem to be saying that the Toolset is the driver: that you have to limit the Toolset to get the proper Skillset. I had thought the goal was to get a Skillset broad enough to apply to many tools, to allow you to fight with what you have in any given situation. (Without implication that all tools are equal; just that all tools are better than no tools.)

 

[Sheepdog1968]

A little while ago I ran across a post where someone stated that you can only have muscle memory for one gun.
Opinions? Even better, facts?
I've owned several different handguns, but i've always sold them when I move to a different handgun. I haven't had experience going back and forth much.
I can see where you may be able to pick it back up after a few rounds, but i'm asking if we can switch from one gun to the next without a relearning period.

I tend to agree with this when talking about your life is really on the line and there is great stress.

For that reason for weapons whose main purpose is solely as a self-dfense weapon, I choose pistols that avoid a manual safety so they all in effect behave the same (i.e. Sigs, Glocks, XDs). As for shotguns, it's a pump Mossberg (tang safety) period though I'm sure the Rems, Wins, etc are just as good. For rifles it's the Garand, M1A and mini-14/30 kind of controls.

For social shooting, I am totally fine owning and shooting other kinds of weapon platforms to have some level of familiarity with them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure I could use others if I had to in a pinch (say a 1911, Beretta 92FS, bolt or lever action rifle, or a double barrel shotgun) but it wouldn't be my perfered choice as a self defense weapon. There are times when I go to the woods and stay at a friends cabin (hunting or social shooting) and this (alternate long arm) are all that I have. I still sleep soundly.


This past weekend, I was borrowing some firends semiauto shotguns while shooting sporting clays. I found myself trying to pump between shots. It was kind of funny.