Truth about muscle memory.

[coolluke01]

A little while ago I ran across a post where someone stated that you can only have muscle memory for one gun.
Opinions? Even better, facts?
I've owned several different handguns, but i've always sold them when I move to a different handgun. I haven't had experience going back and forth much.
I can see where you may be able to pick it back up after a few rounds, but i'm asking if we can switch from one gun to the next without a relearning period.

 

[Hk Dan]

Yes you can. I am very experienced withboth GLOCK and HK. I can switch between the two with 3 practised draws. After that I can draw with my eyes closed and have the sights lined up upon opening them.

 

[BCRider]

I've seen guys that are at the top of their game working with only one gun. They are amazing to watch. So all in all I'd say that this is an accurate statement. It's also likely the source for the old adage of "beware the man with only one gun as he likely uses it very well".

But I enjoy a wide variety of guns from SA black powder revolvers to SA 1911's far too much to pay any attention to this "nonsense". Although I fully realize that it means I'll never reach the top of the heap in competition shooting.

I've "compensated" for this by using a slightly different draw and aim for the first shot. I draw and bring the gun up and out with the front slightly high. As I present the gun I put the front blade on the target and then raise the rear of the gun to "cradle" the front blade image in the U of the rear sight. The trigger finger is building pressure as this happens so that I've got the initial pressure up to speed on the trigger and just need to finish off as the sights and target all come into line.

It's not as fast as "one gun muscle memory" can manage. But it's decently quick and allows me to shoot a wide variety of guns from a holster draw or low ready start position with reasonable speed and accuracy well enough that I often find myself at the bottom of the upper 1/4 to 1/3 of the results list. And occasionally I've managed to do well enough to finish in the top standings.... depending on who shows and who doesn't....

 

[oldgold]

At least as far as I'm concerned it's no big deal. For years I shot USPSA,IDPA, Speed Steel and Action pistol on consecutive weekends. Four different guns and rigs. A couple of practice draws after gearing up and I was good to go. While never a super competitor, I have won some matches.

My carry guns range from a H-P to Taurus snubbie.

 

[rcmodel]

where someone stated that you can only have muscle memory for one gun.

Can you pick your nose and scratch your hind-end without having to plan ahead for each movement?

I thought so.

My work is done here.

rc

 

[DAdams]

I have shotguns I bird hunted with in the mid 70s. I would hunt two or three days a week for months on end. I can pick them up and operate them like it was yesterday. I can actually feel the safety and the action of each without holding them today.

The same holds true of the boats I used to operate, dash, switch layouts control handles etc.

The answer is yes.

Some of my more recent one not so much. At least not yet.

 

[orionengnr]

Can you pick your nose and scratch your hind-end without having to plan ahead for each movement?

I thought so.

My work is done here.

I must apologize in advance, but for the first (and hopefully the last) time, I must respectfully disagree with a poster with whom I almost always agree.

Picking one's nose or scratching one's hind end is a casual act. If I were to try it while undergoing a massive adrenaline dump (because someone is shooting at me) my fingers may not be so accurate...

To take this a step further, it is my personal opinion (worth exactly what you paid for it) that muscle memory is the primary reason that we train regularly.

I believe it has been well documented that when the worst happens, you will revert to your level of training. If your actions are not instinctive, your performance will suffer.

I am subscribing, because there is a good chance I am overlooking something...and if that is the case, I want to learn something.

 

[9mmepiphany]

A little while ago I ran across a post where someone stated that you can only have muscle memory for one gun.

It isn't that you can only have muscle memory for one gun, it is that it is difficult to maximize performance more than one gun. I remember when the Bianchi Cup was dominated by the bull barreled revolvers. All the top names in shooting competition had to devote a huge amount of time to reacquainting themselves with what it took to shoot a wheelgun before the match...and they weren't even shooting very fast. The shrouded slide 1911 was a godsend to them.

Breaking the first shot as you extend from the holster is minor compared to resetting and prepping the trigger for the next shot. You risk jerking a shot at one end (not enough pressure) or firing before you sight settles (too much pressure)...or you can just slow down and give up the battle of the shot splits.

If your shooting isn't to the level where these factors make a difference, the whole point is moot

 

[BCRider]

I believe it has been well documented that when the worst happens, you will revert to your level of training.

It certainly has. That report on the big FBI shootout with two gunmen from many years ago had a mention of one or two of the officers being found with empty brass in their pockets. Seems that what they did at the practice range to avoid having to pick up after they were done. Did it slow them down enough that it caused their demise? Hard to say.

Something as silly as how we use cover comes to mind from personal experience. In shooting IDPA I tended to crowd the cover at first. Now I'm training myself to stay back a bit so I can have my gun up and presented forward as I lean out to take my shots instead of having to pass the gun around the corner and then follow it and finally aim and shoot. It's not quite a practised instinct yet but it's getting there.

 

[2zulu1]

Can't speak for others, but critical situations can be times of absolute clarity. Keep your head together because the weapon in your hands may not be the one you've trained with.

 

[9mmepiphany]

It certainly has. That report on the big FBI shootout with two gunmen from many years ago had a mention of one or two of the officers being found with empty brass in their pockets. Seems that what they did at the practice range to avoid having to pick up after they were done. Did it slow them down enough that it caused their demise? Hard to say.

I think you're mingling the FBI Miami shootout and the CHP Newhall shootout. BTW: the legend that the officers had empty casings in their pockets was disproven a few years ago...but as an urban legend, it was still a good teaching point

I'm training myself to stay back a bit so I can have my gun up and presented forward as I lean out to take my shots instead of having to pass the gun around the corner and then follow it and finally aim and shoot.

Staying back also has the tactical advantages of:
1. Avoids giving away your position behind cover
2. Better protects you from ricochets
3. Allows more angle for "slicing the pie"

 

[Bovice]

Can you pick your nose and scratch your hind-end without having to plan ahead for each movement?

I thought so.

My work is done here.

rc

LOL

Must be a lot of itchy butts at the range during cold/flu season!

 

[TACOJOE]

You can certainly have muscle memory for more than one gun. I play trombone, guitar, and baritone, and all require different and very technical muscle memory. I would say this type of different and specialized muscle memory correlates well with different and specialized guns.

 

[vicdotcom]

Hmm interesting. I can say that my trigger finger has the same muscle memory even with different firearms. But I know that some of my other firearms have different balance points, aim points, and even gripping points (semi-auto higher grip compared to single-action lower grip for example).

So my opinion:

1) What muscle are you talking about? If just the trigger finger, then I think you can transfer it from one handgun to another.

2) If you are talking about all the muscles needed to fire accurately, I say that because the muscles and grips may be different, that you do indeed have different muscle memories needed for each firearm to one degree or another.

 

[PRM]

BTW: the legend that the officers had empty casings in their pockets was disproven a few years ago...but as an urban legend, it was still a good teaching point

Guess that's a personal opinion. If I know something is false and that is someone's basis for teaching, they have just lost credibility in my perspective.

Can you pick your nose and scratch your hind-end without having to plan ahead for each movement?

I thought so.

My work is done here.

rc

I tend to agree. I've never had a problem or even given a thought about switching from my favorite revolver to my favorite semi-auto. At least not until these threads pop up. I generally view them in the same light as caliber war threads and the HP VS FMJ discussions. Everybody has an opinion and not everyone is going to agree. The same old arguments surface with frequent repetition of what someone else wrote or said.

 

[Bobson]

I believe it has been well documented that when the worst happens, you will revert to your level of training. If your actions are not instinctive, your performance will suffer.

I am subscribing, because there is a good chance I am overlooking something...and if that is the case, I want to learn something.

There's nothing wrong with learning anything, but keep in mind that there's a difference between learning something, and applying it.

You may learn that there's sufficient reason to believe your original belief is unfounded, but that doesn't mean it's unfounded for you. In other words, even if most people can pick up a variety of types of handguns and perform well with them, that doesn't mean you can.

This isn't a cut-and-dry topic. What works for one man may not work for another. If you can't switch between guns with flawless efficiency, as rcmodel (and I respect his opinions as much as the next guy) apparently can, ...well, it's good for you to recognize that fact, particularly if you're one of the many people who enjoy switching their carry-guns around every so often simply for a change of pace.

I wouldn't do it; but that doesn't mean it's wrong, or that anyone who does do it is going to have lower odds of surviving in a SD situation.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I doubt there is such a thing as "muscle" memory. Muscles just contract and relax. All the management is done by our nervous systems, not the muscles themselves.

 

[Ankeny]

I doubt there is such a thing as "muscle" memory. Muscles just contract and relax. All the management is done by our nervous systems, not the muscles themselves.

That is very true, but what you describe still carries the misnomer of "muscle memory". Kind of like all adjustable jaw wrenches are "Crescent wrenches".

FWIW, there are a lot of shooters at the Steel Challenge shooting rim fire, iron sights, and open division back to back to back. I have seen guys shoot USPSA Classifiers with a revolver, then turn right around and shoot them with a single stack and wring out GM scores on both.

 

[iLikeOldgunsIlikeNewGuns]

Tex Grebner might only have muscle memory with one at a time

I'm sorry, too soon?


yeah my karma just went down three points

 

[iLikeOldgunsIlikeNewGuns]

In all seriousness though, I rotate my HD shotgun between my 870 and 500 every few days, and have no issue with the 'reversed' pump-release and different safeties on them, also I've come to know my carry pistols so well at this point just having the grip in my hand tells my mind which platform to manipulate, I rotate between a SW1911 (favorite), 5906, and 4" 629. mixing up muscle (or mental for that matter) memory has not been an issue. practice practice practice

 

[Sam1911]

but i'm asking if we can switch from one gun to the next without a relearning period.

I can pick up any of my guns and shoot "pretty well" with them.

When I "campaign" a gun for a season of matches, I'm trying for a higher level than "pretty well." More of an unconscious application of that weapon as an extension of me.

That does not come instantly back into my hands. I find that I need a month or so (maybe 1,000 rds of practice) to really be back on top of a particular gun, if it's one that I've competed with before. The draw, the reloads, point of aim, sights, etc. all are different enough (especially when transitioning between autos and revolver) to require refresher practice for a while.

 

[Red Cent]

Standing Wolf has touched on it. Muscle memory is really the product of the sub-conscious (SC). The SC directs the muscles through memory retention. The conscious mind can do one thing at a time. Not so the SC.

Ever got into another car and tried to depress the clutch? Maybe went for the shifter? Muscle memory=ingrained in the SC.

You can do very well with different weapons because of the SC, but you would be much better ingraining one into the SC rather than a number of weapons.

I relate this to cowboy. In cowboy you fire two pistols, a shotgun, and a lever rifle. When the buzzer sounds, the transitions between the firearms will eat your lunch if you cannot holster while picking up a rifle. Idle hands loses a stage/match.

RC, what are you saying?

 

[Red Cent]

I would never rotate an EDC. Mine is always the same. Commander.

 

[Fishslayer]

Seems like there are two schools of thought.

"Master one platform"
and
"Be proficient with multiple platforms."

I practice most with my HD weapons (DA semi & revolver) but wouldn't think of neglecting the 1911.

As far as muscle memory goes I would say the skill that requires the most practice is shooting a revolver briskly in DA mode. Just because it's simple don't make it easy.

 

[Matthew Courtney]

It certainly has. That report on the big FBI shootout with two gunmen from many years ago had a mention of one or two of the officers being found with empty brass in their pockets. Seems that what they did at the practice range to avoid having to pick up after they were done. Did it slow them down enough that it caused their demise? Hard to say.

Something as silly as how we use cover comes to mind from personal experience. In shooting IDPA I tended to crowd the cover at first. Now I'm training myself to stay back a bit so I can have my gun up and presented forward as I lean out to take my shots instead of having to pass the gun around the corner and then follow it and finally aim and shoot. It's not quite a practised instinct yet but it's getting there.

I believe you are confusing two different events. The incident where brass was found in a dead officers pocket was in Newhall, California in 1970. The event involving FBI agents was in Miami in 1986. Several agents had left their vests and shotguns in their trunks when they went bank robber hunting.