Chris Rhines
Member
Also, there are still some poor souls living in California, New Jersey, etc, who might want to shoot USPSA.
- Chris
- Chris
Trying ipsc after idpa
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71Commander
Member
I shoot USPSA in Limited 10 (1911 with 10 round mags). Gonna give the SS division a try come Jan 1st.
At first, IPSC is both physically and mentally exhausting. Lot of running, shooting and thinking, all at the same time.
At first, IPSC is both physically and mentally exhausting. Lot of running, shooting and thinking, all at the same time.
MNgoldenbear
Member
I don't know if I feel as strongly as mattjoe, but that's definitely a good point at the end. I haven't shot IDPA, but have done a lot of IPSC and some 3-Gun "tactical" scenario stuff based around IPSC/IDPA type rules. In the latter, people would often get bent out of shape about a stage not being "tactically sound". We basically took the same standpoint that "cardboard doesn't shoot back**". Until someone's shooting back, it's just a game. (If someone IS shooting back, try to survive and get the heck out of there!) Any of these games are good for your marksmanship, gun handling, and just plain fun if you don't get too wound up about it. If you're not going to enjoy it, why not just go to work and at least make some money? 
One of the funniest things I ever saw related to "tactical shooting" competition and how it is NOT TACTICAL SHOOTING:
Competitor is attempting a stage with an array of several steel "poppers" directly in front of him at minimal range. Shooter blasts through the stage, then pivots several times in a "ready" position to sweep over the scene, as they'd been taught at some tactical shooting school. The competitor then lowers and clears the firearm. RO says, "IF you are finished, unload, show clear." Most competitors recognize that emphasis means you've missed something big-time. He in fact had a full size pepper popper standing squarely in front of him about 10 yards away -- he had hit all the steel, but "rang" that one! An expletive was followed quickly by a reload and shot to finish. He was going through the motions, but definitely had missed out on the mindset.
Another interesting thing about this group (not officially IPSC or IDPA, just guys who liked to shoot). They were very much into how to transfer skills to "real life". The penalty for a "no-shoot" hit was to zero the stage. Idea being that if you get sloppy and hit bystanders, you're going to get a lot more than a 10 point (or "x" seconds, not sure about IDPA) penalty when the legal system gets done with you. They'd also do clinics on techniques and strategies after the match. We had a few guys who really knew their stuff and taught formal classes, but a lot of guys just enjoyed thinking through different possibilities -- not that they'd have the "right" answer, but that thinking of options ahead of time might give them an edge in a real situation. If nothing else, we'd figure out what DIDN'T work. Many stage scenarios were taken from published reports of real-life situations, others from members' personal experiences with use of force. It was just kind of neat (and humbling) to try something out and have it fail miserably due to competition thinking versus real-world problems. (e.g. thrusting your pistol out - a la normal competition stances - toward a threat target placed literally at contact distance -- you'd possibly lose the weapon, and at least have a big chance of having it pushed out of battery if it's an auto.) We also had knife utilization stages a couple of times a year, noting that most carried them but never practiced any fighting skills. We all pretty much discovered that we sucked with knives, and had better bring a pistol if we were ever invited to a knife fight!
Anyway, play whatever games you can, and have fun. Stay safe -- always come home with the same number of openings in your skin that you started the day with!
** This line was sort of like one out of an old Bruce Lee movie. A rival tosses a board into the air and shatters it with a fist or foot attempting to intimidate Bruce. He replies, "Boards don't hit back."
One of the funniest things I ever saw related to "tactical shooting" competition and how it is NOT TACTICAL SHOOTING:
Competitor is attempting a stage with an array of several steel "poppers" directly in front of him at minimal range. Shooter blasts through the stage, then pivots several times in a "ready" position to sweep over the scene, as they'd been taught at some tactical shooting school. The competitor then lowers and clears the firearm. RO says, "IF you are finished, unload, show clear." Most competitors recognize that emphasis means you've missed something big-time. He in fact had a full size pepper popper standing squarely in front of him about 10 yards away -- he had hit all the steel, but "rang" that one! An expletive was followed quickly by a reload and shot to finish. He was going through the motions, but definitely had missed out on the mindset.
Another interesting thing about this group (not officially IPSC or IDPA, just guys who liked to shoot). They were very much into how to transfer skills to "real life". The penalty for a "no-shoot" hit was to zero the stage. Idea being that if you get sloppy and hit bystanders, you're going to get a lot more than a 10 point (or "x" seconds, not sure about IDPA) penalty when the legal system gets done with you. They'd also do clinics on techniques and strategies after the match. We had a few guys who really knew their stuff and taught formal classes, but a lot of guys just enjoyed thinking through different possibilities -- not that they'd have the "right" answer, but that thinking of options ahead of time might give them an edge in a real situation. If nothing else, we'd figure out what DIDN'T work. Many stage scenarios were taken from published reports of real-life situations, others from members' personal experiences with use of force. It was just kind of neat (and humbling) to try something out and have it fail miserably due to competition thinking versus real-world problems. (e.g. thrusting your pistol out - a la normal competition stances - toward a threat target placed literally at contact distance -- you'd possibly lose the weapon, and at least have a big chance of having it pushed out of battery if it's an auto.) We also had knife utilization stages a couple of times a year, noting that most carried them but never practiced any fighting skills. We all pretty much discovered that we sucked with knives, and had better bring a pistol if we were ever invited to a knife fight!
Anyway, play whatever games you can, and have fun. Stay safe -- always come home with the same number of openings in your skin that you started the day with!
** This line was sort of like one out of an old Bruce Lee movie. A rival tosses a board into the air and shatters it with a fist or foot attempting to intimidate Bruce. He replies, "Boards don't hit back."
Jim Watson said:[snip]I think a well rated competitive shooter would kill his first assailant so suddenly that any other(s) would flee... or freeze and die.[end of snip]I think if I'm ever on the recieving end of the competitive shooter, I'll
1.) Hide
2.) let him shoot a bit
3.) then yell out ... "If you are finished, unload and show me clear".
Of course I'll not put the emphasis on "IF"
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
I've never had the opportunity to shoot IPSC and only a few IDPA matches. But I've watched some top competitors from both sports shoot.
While you can't judge a person's mindset from their shooting skills; the bad guys facing either a good IPSC or a good IDPA shooter is going to experience shock and awe once the decision to engage is made.
I've seen a number of competitors from both games who are going to be hard pressed to take cover, reload, or use tactics unless there are more than four or five opponents. There's no need to take cover, reload, or use different tactics when you've just killed all your opponents.
While you can't judge a person's mindset from their shooting skills; the bad guys facing either a good IPSC or a good IDPA shooter is going to experience shock and awe once the decision to engage is made.
I've seen a number of competitors from both games who are going to be hard pressed to take cover, reload, or use tactics unless there are more than four or five opponents. There's no need to take cover, reload, or use different tactics when you've just killed all your opponents.
Both are GAMES. Both are fun. I personally like IPSC better because I came there to shoot, so the more the better. The only reason I do not shoot IPSC anymore is because I got stationed in an area that does not have any clubs and I work weekends, otherwise I would.
This whole thing about "this or that will get you killed is amusing. Due to the nature of my work it is a rare week that goes by that I am not pointing guns at some bad guy. Today was no different. It is just buisness.
As far as I am concerned years of shooting IPSC has done the opposite. I became faster and more proficient with my work/carry gear because I shot with it constantly. I recognized where my ability boundaries were.
There have been many times where I have been legally justified in shooting but have not simply because I knew I could still take the guy. This has given a number of BG's one more chance to surrender or drop their weapon, which thankfully they did. If anything I would say IPSC has saved lives.
I am sure some "tactical hobbyists" will want to flame away . The above has simply been my experience.
This whole thing about "this or that will get you killed is amusing. Due to the nature of my work it is a rare week that goes by that I am not pointing guns at some bad guy. Today was no different. It is just buisness.
As far as I am concerned years of shooting IPSC has done the opposite. I became faster and more proficient with my work/carry gear because I shot with it constantly. I recognized where my ability boundaries were.
There have been many times where I have been legally justified in shooting but have not simply because I knew I could still take the guy. This has given a number of BG's one more chance to surrender or drop their weapon, which thankfully they did. If anything I would say IPSC has saved lives.
I am sure some "tactical hobbyists" will want to flame away
. The above has simply been my experience." I've seen a number of competitors from both games who are going to be hard pressed to take cover, reload, or use tactics unless there are more than four or five opponents. There's no need to take cover, reload, or use different tactics when you've just killed all your opponents."
well said.
well said.
oldtrooper
Member
IDPA vs. USPSA
Either one or both are great for developing skill with a handgun. Learning to shoot fast and accurately is, I think, the most important element of self difense. Cover is always important and movement is equally important. I have been in law enforcement for 41 years and have seen the bear, more than once. In one instance we were in a road in front of a vehicle that was slowly backing down the road. The local sheriff had exchanged himslef for a woman and her three children as a hostage. The vehicle started to back into a drive and the shooter shot the sheriff in the side. We were about 50 feet away and now cover close at hand. The shooter was swinging the handgun around to shoot at us through the windshield and only quick reaction and accruate fire stopped him from pulling that trigger.
In another instance a young trooper stopped an escaped convict on an interstate. They wound up in a shoot out and both had excellent cover, automobiles, and exchanged several shots. The young trooper told me at debreifing, "boss I noticed he kept popping un in the same place to shoot at me so I got a good sight picture on that spot and when he popped up I squeezed the trigger" he got him between the lights.
Any shooting that incorporates speed, accuracy, judgement, reloading under pressure etc., will serve you well in the real world. The only thing better is force on force training with simunitions etc. The targets move and it hurts if you get hit. In either IDPA, USPSA you will learn how to get off an accruate shot fast without an AD.
I am classified in USPSA Class B in both Limited and Limited 10. Have shot IDPA but never shot the classification course. I have shot PPC, the only advantage here was learning what a correct sight picture produces. I have Distinguished Badges in NRA Action Pistol in both Open Class and Metallic Sights. The key to survival is to be totally familiar with your weapon to the point that the drawing, firing and reloading are so programmed in your brain that you can focus on the event as it occurs around you.
Shoot any type competetive shooting every time you can. None of it will get you killed, only brain fade, focusing on handling your weapon, or just plain bad luck will get you killed.
Either one or both are great for developing skill with a handgun. Learning to shoot fast and accurately is, I think, the most important element of self difense. Cover is always important and movement is equally important. I have been in law enforcement for 41 years and have seen the bear, more than once. In one instance we were in a road in front of a vehicle that was slowly backing down the road. The local sheriff had exchanged himslef for a woman and her three children as a hostage. The vehicle started to back into a drive and the shooter shot the sheriff in the side. We were about 50 feet away and now cover close at hand. The shooter was swinging the handgun around to shoot at us through the windshield and only quick reaction and accruate fire stopped him from pulling that trigger.
In another instance a young trooper stopped an escaped convict on an interstate. They wound up in a shoot out and both had excellent cover, automobiles, and exchanged several shots. The young trooper told me at debreifing, "boss I noticed he kept popping un in the same place to shoot at me so I got a good sight picture on that spot and when he popped up I squeezed the trigger" he got him between the lights.
Any shooting that incorporates speed, accuracy, judgement, reloading under pressure etc., will serve you well in the real world. The only thing better is force on force training with simunitions etc. The targets move and it hurts if you get hit. In either IDPA, USPSA you will learn how to get off an accruate shot fast without an AD.
I am classified in USPSA Class B in both Limited and Limited 10. Have shot IDPA but never shot the classification course. I have shot PPC, the only advantage here was learning what a correct sight picture produces. I have Distinguished Badges in NRA Action Pistol in both Open Class and Metallic Sights. The key to survival is to be totally familiar with your weapon to the point that the drawing, firing and reloading are so programmed in your brain that you can focus on the event as it occurs around you.
Shoot any type competetive shooting every time you can. None of it will get you killed, only brain fade, focusing on handling your weapon, or just plain bad luck will get you killed.
oldtrooper
Member
IV Troop
I was the Lt. Col. chief of the uniformed division at that time. Jim Boxx was head of EP and indeed was a good guy. I retired two years into the next admisistration and have been chief of police in McComb since then.
I was the Lt. Col. chief of the uniformed division at that time. Jim Boxx was head of EP and indeed was a good guy. I retired two years into the next admisistration and have been chief of police in McComb since then.
Why is this? Is there a penalty for doing so?DrKyle1 said:
Also, someone mentioned shooting from more contorted stances. What does this mean? Smaller cover you have to crouch behind etc? Is there the "fifty percent" rule?
I have only shot IDPA. The only thing I don't like about it is that I can't fill 17 round mags beyond 10 rounds. I understand WHY this is, to force mag changes in small round count scenarios, and to level the playing field. I just wish there was a division where it was legal.
So are there divisions in IPSC where I can use 17 round mags? Even if I was up against super modified guns (though I'd prefer not to be), I'd just rather be used to reloading at 17 instead of 10. I'm not so much worried about there being a loss of realistic simulation or anything, or don't care that much about losing points because I have a 9mm. Score me how you want, I'd just rather use the gear as I carry it.
Also, is the C-TAC legal in ipsc?
Zak Smith
Member
Because it takes longer to do a reload from slide lock. If you have to move (takes time) and reload (takes time) you can overlap that time to save stage time.jlh26oo said:
In the US, we have USPSA, the US affiliate of IPSC (the int'l body).
In any case you, can use 17 round mags to capacity in any USPSA division besides "Production" and Limited-10, which leaves Limited and Open.
The holster is fine as long as it's safe.
Yeah, ok. Slide lock reload requires an extra step.
So I've been reading the USPSA website, and according to their pdf rulebook, production class has no ammo capacity maximum, they just prohibit +2 baseplates, or any modifications. Also it appears as if there are no "power factor" point weighing, no major/minor in production. Am I reading this right?
http://www.uspsa.org/rules/Handgun_15th_2004.pdf
Sounds like I can use my 34 with 17 round mags so long as I take of my hi viz front sight.
So I've been reading the USPSA website, and according to their pdf rulebook, production class has no ammo capacity maximum, they just prohibit +2 baseplates, or any modifications. Also it appears as if there are no "power factor" point weighing, no major/minor in production. Am I reading this right?
http://www.uspsa.org/rules/Handgun_15th_2004.pdf
Sounds like I can use my 34 with 17 round mags so long as I take of my hi viz front sight.
jdkelly
Member
...shooting from more contorted stances...
It means that in shooting USPSA, you are more likely to have to shoot through ports or around obstacles that by their placement force you to shoot in uncomfortable stances then you will in IDPA.
By this I mean that you are shooting in neither a kneeling position nor standing mostly erect. You will need to bend to get to the proper height and need to twist to shoot all the targets in the array.
Respectfully,
jdkelly
It means that in shooting USPSA, you are more likely to have to shoot through ports or around obstacles that by their placement force you to shoot in uncomfortable stances then you will in IDPA.
By this I mean that you are shooting in neither a kneeling position nor standing mostly erect. You will need to bend to get to the proper height and need to twist to shoot all the targets in the array.
Respectfully,
jdkelly
Zak Smith
Member
With a Glock 19 or 34, you'd shoot Minor PF in Limited. If you shoot all A's Minor won't make a difference. Most people shoot high capacity 40's in Limited.
Yeah that's why I said nevermind. I was reading "production"- stock sights, no mag cap maximum, no power factor, stock pistols. Would have been perfect. Unfortunately, the "US Production" is completely different.
I might just stick with idpa. I know "limited" is a division, but does it mean the same thing in uspsa, where you can't go back and make up misses? Like if it calls for x number of shots, you only take x number of shots?
I might just stick with idpa. I know "limited" is a division, but does it mean the same thing in uspsa, where you can't go back and make up misses? Like if it calls for x number of shots, you only take x number of shots?
mattjoe
Member
Limited in USPSA means your gun has no electronic sights or compensator or ports in the barrel, and magazines are no longer than 140mm in length.
Which your gun would fit in.
Limited, as a division, doesn't define how many rounds you shoot, just what kind of gun is allowed in that division.
The scoring style you'd be referring to where you are only allowed to fire a set number of shots, and no more without penalty is known in USPSA as Virginia Count, and you rarely run into it outside of a classifier stage, or a major match.
Almost all stages are scored "Comstock" scoring, which is: go ahead and shoot as many rounds out there as you want. When you're done, stop.
Which your gun would fit in.
Limited, as a division, doesn't define how many rounds you shoot, just what kind of gun is allowed in that division.
The scoring style you'd be referring to where you are only allowed to fire a set number of shots, and no more without penalty is known in USPSA as Virginia Count, and you rarely run into it outside of a classifier stage, or a major match.
Almost all stages are scored "Comstock" scoring, which is: go ahead and shoot as many rounds out there as you want. When you're done, stop.
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