Trying to explain sectional density to the dummies at work

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You have to believe that energy is a meaningful number to go down that rabbit hole. I don't. All that matters is the depth, breadth and location of the wound channel. The quantity of energy consumed or "wasted" in the process is irrelevant.

So are the bullet design, impact location, etc if you don’t have the energy to make the bullet do it’s job. Put that same bullet through a slingshot at 150fps and tell me how good it does when it hits a whitetail...or a bullfrog for that matter.
 
Nobody said energy was not in play. Is a slingshot going to produce the same wound channel as a rifle? No.
 
The deer that I have taken with my .308 have never stopped a round at any distance; all of the deer that I have taken with my 6.8 SPC have stopped all of the rounds (they tend to fragment in the chest cavity). Most of the .308 deer act like they are not even hit and run pretty well for 30 - 50 yards or so; the 6.8 deer always appear to be hit hard and either drop or walk a few steps and then drop. My field experience tells me that all of the incremental ballistics science that is discussed for all the various rounds is moot in the field but it is fun to read about.

I don't want to be dismissive of either the 308 Win or 6.5 Creedmoor. I have the earlier version of the 6.5 CM, the 6.5 X 55 Swede, :p and that is an accurate and light recoiling round. The Range Master at the 600 yard range at CMP Talladega was hitting golf balls at 600 yards, with his 6.5 CM, so, the round definitely has potential. I earned my Distinguished Rifleman's badge with a 308 Win M1a, so I will always have a soft spot in my heart for that round.

I am primarily a paper puncher, but my hunting buds have not found the 308 Win lacking in penetration, in fact, quite the reverse. One bud, his 308 Win rounds were blowing through the rib cages of the deer he was hunting and the bullets were not expanding. The deer would run off, die about 200 yards away, but these deer were lost. Bud shot too many deer at dusk and could not track them in the inky woods, and would find them the next morning, eat up by coyotes. Bud then started aiming between the shoulder and the neck, and that would knock the deer down, much more bone and muscle to hit.

One elk hunter, he had 308 bullets blow up on the hide, he changed brands, to a bullet that went all the way through, and he thought his 308 Win was just dandy. The problem was not the caliber or cartridge, it was with poorly designed bullets.

I am going to claim, that we the shooting community, have been taught by shill gunwriters, how to "evaluate" rifles and rounds. They have perfected this for well over a century, but what they hype, are tiny differences. Their criteria allows them to create vast caverns of advertising between insignificant differences, such as the differences between the 30-06 and the 270 Win. (from what I have read, deer can tell the difference between a .277 projectile and a 308 projectile). That 0. 031" difference between bullets has kept gunwriters gainfully employed since the 1920's.

The difference in the field, that is the lethality difference, do you notice that no one is really complaining that any of these rounds are not lethal? Both seem to be doing the job the owners intend. But how do you sell that?
 
It's a simple model based on baby physics. It's nothing more than F = ma with assumptions.

The model is to assume the impinged media imposes a fixed resisting pressure against the projectile. F = PA = ma.

If the pressure 'P' is assumed to be independent of the type projectile, then the 'a', in this case deceleration, increases as the cross sectional area, 'A' of the bullet increases and the mass of the bullet 'm' decreases. Inverting that, wanting smaller deceleration to be associated with greater penetration gives the m/A that most people write about.

It is a limited model. It's as simple as I described. Doesn't consider bullet design, bullet shape, energy or anything else. Plus it shouldn't be taken too far. For example, a hair thin needle made of depleted uranium would have a very high "sectional density" but would cause very little tissue damage.
 
Those guys at work might be on to something. Has anyone ever won a war with 308 cal? Yes. Has anyone ever won a war with 6.5 mm?
The proof is in the empirical puddin
 
@harrygunner - your model described above assumes the net Force in both heavy/slow and light/fast cases is equal. Do you believe that is a fair truth as the foundation of the model? Your Force is effectively the force exterted by the tissue back against the bullet - as that is the only cause for decelerating force in the system. And of course, it sits with an assumption of an instantaneous case of constant deceleration value a and constant pressure value P. I don’t think I can get there in a place of good science.
 
Models don't attempt to further fundamental science. They are very specific and, if done properly, use existing science to make useful computations for practical purposes. Whoever came up with the sectional density model did use basic physics. I'm certain that person did not set out to solve the general problem of bullet dynamics in arbitrary media.

There is nothing more to the sectional density model than what I explained it's based on.

The "Taylor Knock-Out Factor" is another model the gun community pushes. It is a model, but is wrong from a physics basis.

Both need to be taken with "salt".
 
Actually, I think a more pragmatic explanation would be in order.

Ask them if their girlfriend was mad at them, would they rather her stamp their instep with her high heel or the heel of her loafer. High heel has high sectional density, loafer low (all other things being equal).

Of course, it would be better for her not to get mad...
 
The 308 vs 6.5 Creedmost conversation always is a head scratcher.

Maybe describe it this way: "You are standing quietly on a long, perfectly paved section of road. Would you rather be struck by a Toyota Tundra going 63 miles per hour (that takes less gas to go the same velocity) or would you rather be struck by a Dodge Ram going 57 miles per hour?

Which one do you perceive as making your day worse?
 
Those guys at work might be on to something. Has anyone ever won a war with 308 cal? Yes. Has anyone ever won a war with 6.5 mm?
The proof is in the empirical puddin
Didn't Finland fight off Russia?
To the OP you can't win arguments with facts. Or they may be pulling your leg.
 
Doesn't matter where it's assembled, a Toyota is still a Japanese truck. Is a Harley made in Brazil a Brazilian motorcycle or an American Harley?

Yup, and my Springfield XD9 and XD45 are 'murican guns but those stinking Glock's made in Smyrna Georgia are no better than Wienerschnitzel's from Austria. o_O
 
Personally, I really don't care where my guns are made. Happy with Croatian Springfields and Japanese Winchesters. I surely have enough Rugers, S&W's, etc. to make up for it.
 
We shot homemade 1/2" steel hanging gongs at 10 yds with 9mm pistol and 308 from 16" barrel. 9mm made a lead splatter on the target and no crater. 308 punched clean holes through. 9mm was 125 gr. 308 was 147 gr.
Clearly some physics is in play here.
 
A nickels worth of difference isn't worth the cost of a new rifle,folks get too hung up on numbers, I keep my .308 !!! hdbiker
 
...punched clean holes through.

We had a younger gentleman do the same with a Two Twenty Three and our pistol racing rack. And still hasn't repaired them!:fire:
I wonder if he notices how we are always just leaving when he shows up...

The scariest part is the bullet jacket I found lodged in the cabin's siding. Crinkled up like a little round accordion of death. :eek:

A nickels worth of difference isn't worth the cost of a new rifle
But I'll use any excuse! Even the barely plausible "it kills better". And I don't even hunt!:)
 
Models don't attempt to further fundamental science. They are very specific and, if done properly, use existing science to make useful computations for practical purposes. Whoever came up with the sectional density model did use basic physics. I'm certain that person did not set out to solve the general problem of bullet dynamics in arbitrary media.


There is nothing more to the sectional density model than what I explained it's based on.


The "Taylor Knock-Out Factor" is another model the gun community pushes. It is a model, but is wrong from a physics basis.

I am going to claim that Gunwriters have attempted and continue to attempt to make lethality a precise science. Sort of like that dismal science, Economics. If you examine economic literature, the majority of what you read are mathematical models based on neo classic economics.

from Wiki:


580px-EffectOfTariff.svg.png

If anyone did not notice, neo classicist mathematical models did not predict the Great Recession of 2008. Economists and gunwriters both have the same problem, they want to predict the future, given some simple inputs, and both camps have failed totally.

I remember when the Hatcher Index was dogma in the IPSC community. Hatcher created a simple model, based on momentum, added a shape factor for the bullet. The 45 ACP came out of to 20 on the revised Hatcher models, and is the baseline for determining what is a “major” round, lesser recoiling rounds are dismissed as "minor". Hatcher assumed that momentum was correlated to lethality, but he never conducted any tests to determine if his intuition was correct. (It was not)

The Kinetic energy school has been dominate among gunwriters primarily because it favors velocity. This is typical:

lq4gQjf.jpg

Weatherby promoted high velocity bullets, and according to Weatherby, you just have to hit the animal somewhere, anywhere, and that “wallop” does the rest. Gunwriters have created chapters of tables, ranked by kinetic energy, and animal type. It takes this much kinetic energy to kill this size of animal, more for this size. Of course, it is all nonsense and drivel, but it evolved from the problems gunwriters have on selling new rounds which are essentially identical to existing rounds. It is a lot easier to increase velocity, and hence KE than it is to increase momentum. Momentum is mass times velocity, but kinetic energy is mass time velocity squared. Squaring that velocity increases that fantasy chasm, that gunwriters need to push product, when shilling for the new, against the old.

If you notice, the market has sort of hit a wall on pressures. Cartridge pressures that run at 65,000 psia are the upper limit for reliability, and even then, temperamental at those pressures, causing all sorts of over pressure problems. Cartridges that regularly run at high pressures frequently have pressure issues because itty bitty changes cause pressures to spike, and the brass case materials just don’t have any margin at those pressures.

Also, Ackley Improved cartridge shapes have dominated the post WW2 market. A straight taper cylinder maximizes powder charge, but those shapes don’t feed well or extract well. Taper is good for feeding and extracting, but that taper takes away from case volume. Increasing case volume increases powder charges, which lead to a velocity increase. Increased velocity is what the market wants, or what the market has been taught to want, hence, what we see with these Ackley Improved type of cases, are detachable magazines, that precisely orient the top round, so the sucker will go in the chamber, but reduce magazine capacity from 5 rounds to three rounds. And if the magazine lips get a slight bend, the straight walled cartridge misfeeds.

After combustion, a taper cartridge will relax off the chamber walls at a diagonal, increasing clearance between case and chamber, but the straight walled case will come off at a straight line, and drag on extraction. Which increases the probabilities of stove pipe jams as the case falls off the bolt face. This is a particular problem with the 5.56, it is called “extractor lift”. The 5.56 is very straight walled, made according to the theories of Ackley, and it drags on extraction. You can see a presentation on this here: https://ndia.dtic.mil/2003/smallarms/2003smallarms.html , it is under session VI, look for Understanding Extractor Lift in the M16 Family of Weapons. What you see in the presentation, is that the 5.56 case drags under extraction, and to eliminate that drag, for the purpose of test, they had to grease the rounds. If anyone noticed, both the Soviet 7.62 X 39mm and the Chinese 5.8 mm round have a lot of taper and it is not by accident. The 7.62 X 39 feeds and extracts exceeding well with brass or steel case materials.

Bbu89Am.jpg



Shrinking bore diameter does flatten trajectory, but barrel life is awful. I met one Camp Perry competitor who was using a 22-250. His bullets shot flat, but his bore was toast in 1000 rounds. He said there was no rifling for about 12 inches in front of the chamber! Another, was using a 243 Win, and replaced his barrel every 800 rounds. Lets see, a $300 match grade barrel, $250 for the barreling job, and 800 rounds later, $600 dollars for a replacement. (including shipping and insurance) The 243 guy was his own gunsmith, most of the gunsmiths I have dealt with are buried with work. If you get your action rebarreled in under a year, you are lucky.

The current gunwriter theme is to push ballistic coefficient, as a quality attribute. We will see how that works out. I predict it will hit a physical wall.

Mass marketeers are ingenious, and will figure other ways to convince us to spend our money on their products. We are just putty in their hands.
 
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The "Taylor Knock-Out Factor" is another model the gun community pushes. It is a model, but is wrong from a physics basis.
I don't see TKO as being pushed. It's denigrated far more often than espoused. Mostly by people who apply it incorrectly. If anything, it is perhaps the only formula that's actually useful.

If physics could be used to quantify terminal effect, we wouldn't still be arguing about it.
 
To paraphrase William Feller, a model is a just a model and we are often fortunate if it agrees with experimental results much of the time. If it does not, then the model must be revised.

In my career as a theoretical mathematician working in industry (and not as a ballistician), I decided that an easily calculated rule of thumb was usually much more useful than a detailed "predictive" model in the real world. The reason is noise in the system. There are simply so many unknown factors that may have a non-linear effect on the outcome.

Sectional density is a nice thing to think about, but I am not sure that a 150 gr 7 mm bullet will kill any better than a150 gr 30 cal bullet of the same construction.

For that reason, I actually prefer the TKO for putting the long winded diatribes on subjects such as "why the 300 Win Mag is infinitely superior to the 30-06" into perspective.

Another rule of thumb to consider (my own) is that for bullets with ballistic coefficients of greater than .3, every 100 fps of muzzle velocity will give you about 10 yards of effective point blank range.

At the end of the day, you want to point your gun at your quarry, pull the trigger, and the quarry falls down. Everything else is just a matter for speculation after the fact.
 
Sectional density is a nice thing to think about, but I am not sure that a 150 gr 7 mm bullet will kill any better than a150 gr 30 cal bullet of the same construction.
Depends entirely on the critter and the bullet's construction. Generally, the higher SD and more toughly constructed bullet will penetrate deeper and that is usually beneficial on game larger than deer.
 
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