Trying to spread CCW recipricality

[Firethorn]

I've taken another step into the realm of Gun Politics.

I've recently contacted my attorney general(ND), because I read a thread about how Florida's permit is more 'valuable' because it's recognized in far more places than, for example, ND's. Being a holder of a North Dakota CCW, I decided to do some research into why this might be so. First stop, seeing as how I've been there before: Colorado.

North Dakota Law(62.1-04-03.1): Reciprocity. A person who has a valid license issued by another state to carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon in that state and whose state grants to residents of this state the right to carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon without requiring a separate license to carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon issued by that state may carry, subject to the provisions of this state's law, a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon in this state, and the other state's license is valid in this state.

Colorado law (CRS 18-12-213) states that Colorado will recognize a valid permit issued in another state IF the permittee is 21 yrs of age or older AND the other state recognizes Colorado permits as valid in their state. We are currently researching which states fall into that category. This list will be updated as we receive confirmation back from attorneys general in the other 49 states.

I first sent an email to my AG, and received this as a response:

Office of Attorney General
Wayne Stenehjem, Attorney General

I am responding on behalf of the Attorney General to your email. The Attorney General and his staff are prohibited by law from providing legal advice or legal assistance to members of the public or private businesses - we may only serve as legal advisors to state officials, state’s attorneys, and certain city officials. However, I can offer the following information:

At this time, North Dakota does not have concealed weapon reciprocity with Colorado because CO does not recognize North Dakota permits. North Dakota law requires that in order for another state's concealed carry permit to be recognized that other state first must recognize ND concealed carry permits. Therefore you may wish to contact the appropriate authority in Colorado to inquire about the process for CO to formally recognize ND's permits.

Liz Brocker
Executive Assistant/PIO
ND Office of Attorney General
(701) 328-2210
[email protected]

Following her instructions, I've now sent a message to Colorado's AG:

Sir,

I am citizen of North Dakota, and have been doing research on CCW(Concealed Carry). From reading your ccw site(http://cbi.state.co.us/ccw/reciprocity.asp), you do not recognize ND's permits. Both states have recipricality(http://www.ag.state.nd.us/BCI/CW/reciprocity.htm), though ND does issue licenses to those between 18 and 21. This should not prove to be an obstical for either side, North Dakota has recognized permits for states that require the permitee to be 21 or over, and Colorado has recognized permits from states that issue to those under 21(though only for permits belonging to those over 21).

I contacted my Attorney General, and received this response:


previous email inserted


Thank you for your time,

**My Name deleted for purpose of Public Forum privacy**

I figure that once I receive a message back from colorado that I'll have two POC's, and be able to start working on them.

I hope that, soon, ND will have it's permit recognized in one more state.

 

[waterhouse]

Good work.

I have no idea who did all the work in Texas in the past couple years, or what the history involved is, but you might want to try to research that a little. We have added several states over the past couple years, so obviously someone is having success.

Keep us updated on your progress.

 

[wdlsguy]

Responsibility for negotiating concealed handgun reciprocity agreements was moved from the TX Department of Public Safety to the TX Attorney General in 2003 (I think). You can see a major increase in agreements beginning in 2004. Maybe the fact that the Attorney General has to run for office has something to do with it?

 

[larry_minn]

Sounds good. I hope you don't mind but I copied the quote from ND AG and sent it to my state rep. Suggested he contact both and add BOTH to MN list.
I let my NH permit expire so figure will play contact instead of sending another $20

 

[JoshM]

Again, Good Work !

I wonder if the impact of amending ND state (or any state for that matter)legislation concerning CCW reciprocity to specifically include the full, faith and credit clause of the U.S. Consitiution would also be benefical ?

Possibly therefore setting a legal precedent in these matters ?

However, this would likely require an amendment Bill, rather then the simpler regulatory route noted by Firethorn.

Interesting to know if other any other state legislation concerning similar state issued documents (Driver Licenses, Marriage Licenses, etc) refers to the full, faith, and credit clause as a form of "enabling power".

 

[Firethorn]

I'll keep you updated on this, though I don't expect any news until monday, of course.

 

[Firethorn]

Newest Letter exchange: ND doesn't want to be first

My latest to ND:

From: firethorn [mailto:******]
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 1:13 PM
To: Brocker, Liz
Subject: RE: Concealed Weapons-reciprocity


The response of Colorado's AG:

Mr. *****,

Colorado law (CRS 18-12-213) states that Colorado will recognize a
valid permit issued in another state IF the permittee is 21 yrs of age
or older AND the other state recognizes Colorado permits as valid in
their state. North Dakota, however, is not a state that Colorado has a
reciprocity agreement with.

Please see http://www.cbi.state.co.us/ccw/reciprocity.asp for a current
listing of which states recognize Colorado permits.

For more information on concealed carry weapons, please refer to:
http://www.cbi.state.co.us/ccw/

Sincerely,
Office of the Attorney General
1525 Sherman Street, 5th Floor
Denver, CO 80203

It appears to be a case of neither state wanting to be first. Would it be possible for us to contact Colorado's AG[[email protected]], and offer "We'll recognize yours if you'll recognize ours. Do you agree?"

Thank you for your time and attention in this matter.

***** *****[name removed for public forum]

And her reply:

North Dakota Century Code § 62.1-04-03.1 provides:

"A person who has a valid license issued by another state to carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon in that state and whose state grants to residents of this state the right to carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon without requiring a separate license to carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon issued by that state may carry, subject to the provisions of this state's law, a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon in this state, and the other state's license is valid in this state."

As law requires that North Dakota can only recognize another state's permit after that state has first recognized our permits, this office cannot take any further action at this time. However, perhaps Colorado may be willing to initiate a letter, at which time North Dakota could review the issue. Liz

Anybody willing to provide some advice for my next email and/or bringing up the issue with the AG's themselves? I'm thinking about phoning soon. Of course, my unit is having exercises this week, so it'll be tough to find the time to make a phone call.

I'm afraid that it's going to turn into a 'the other guy has to make the first move' contest.

 

[Firethorn]

Oh and the latest to CO

I apologize that my first email wasn't clear. I am attempting to achieve recipicatily between our two states. This is an identical response as to what I received from North Dakota's Attorney General. I have already researched the laws in question, and it appears that all that should be required is a conversation or a letter between the two Attorney Generals.

North Dakota Century Code(62.1-04-03.1): Reciprocity. A person who has a valid license issued by another state to carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon in that state and whose state grants to residents of this state the right to carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon without requiring a separate license to carry a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon issued by that state may carry, subject to the provisions of this state's law, a concealed firearm or dangerous weapon in this state, and the other state's license is valid in this state.

If Colorado recognizes North Dakota's permit, North Dakota will, by statue, recognize Colorado's.

 

[unixguy]

Aren't they technically correct though? The way I'm reading the wording I don't think they're authorized to "be first" to honor the other state's permit. Something to keep in mind when we push for our legislature to allow reciprocity-- allow for some way to start the process.

 

[Firethorn]

Note, I'm not asking them to be 'first' to recognize the other permit. I'm asking them to be first to initiate a 'I'll scratch your back if you'll scratch mine' letter.

I recognize that, by statute, neither state can really be 'first'. What they can be is 'simultaneous'.

 

[AirForceShooter]

don't forget to make sure your comgressman supports HR 4547.

AFS

 

[Firethorn]

Latest and greatest from CO

The Office of the Attorney General forwarded your email to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation (CBI) for response. The CBI sends letters yearly to the other 49 states to determine if reciprocity is possible, and whether state legislation has effected any existing reciprocity of firearms permits. The CBI maintains a list of reciprocal states which is available to Colorado law enforcement and to the public.

I understand your frustration at receiving the same responses from Colorado and North Dakota (i.e. that the other state must recognize their permits first). However, as you can see in Colorado statute, no authority was granted to any Colorado agency or office holder to enter into reciprocity agreements. There are a number of states, Colorado and North Dakota included, with similar statutes that contain an "if / then" provision (if the other state recognizes our state's permits, then we will recognize theirs) which is clearly sequential. It begs the question of "who blinks first?". Some (not all) such states are amenable to an exchange of letters, in which they first agree to accept Colorado permits and we respond with a letter that Colorado's statute dictates that their permits are now valid in Colorado.

We have had preliminary discussions with North Dakota officials. We are currently awaiting advise of counsel regarding North Dakota's statutory language before we continue the discussions regarding reciprocity. I anticipate a decision within the next month, and will keep your email in my North Dakota file as a reminder to email you when a final determination has been made.

Susan Kitchen
Agent in Charge
Colorado Bureau of Investigation
(303) 239-4235

 

[waterhouse]

Wow. it actually sounds like they understand the problem. That's a start.

 

[Firethorn]

Success!!!

I've done it!

Dear Mr. *******,

Reciprocity was achieved on this date between the states of ND and CO with regard to concealed handgun (weapons) permits. A person who possesses a valid ND permit and who is 21 years of age or older may carry a concealed handgun in this state, subject to Colorado laws. Be advised that Colorado law, unlike ND law, allows a permit holder to carry only a concealed handgun (not the myriad of dangerous weapons allowed in ND). Other pertinent Colorado firearms statutes can be reviewed on our web site located at:
http://www.cbi.state.co.us/ccw/
We have posted this reciprocity information to the computer systems available to Colorado Law Enforcement. Our web site (for the public) will be updated sometime tomorrow.

You heard it here first!

Susan Kitchen
Agent in Charge
Colorado Bureau of Investigation
(303) 239-4235

 

[Technosavant]

Congratulations.

MO has a great reciprocity arrangement: we'll take anybody's CCW permit, whether or not that state will take ours. We are gradually getting our permits recognized in other states, but it does take time and a willing AG.

 

[Wiley]

THAT IS TREMENDOUS! Congratulations!

See you can fight city hall and win.

 

[garyk/nm]

WELL DONE, Firethorn!
Now, while you're on a roll, see what you can do about "immigration reform"

 

[waterhouse]

Great job. It's amazing what one guy writing letters can do.

 

[Nickotym]

Good job Firethorn.

 

[Nitrogen]

Maybe I should write Washington State about Texas now. That's the only place i'll be traveling where my current CHL is no good.

 

[Firethorn]

Not even writing letters. I did it solely through email.

Of course, today it's almost the same thing. Now, on to the next state!

Any suggestions?

Oh, and packing.org seems to be too busy, so I'll have to do the state search manually.

 

[MeanStreaker]

I commend you, FireThorn. Way to go!

 

[Nickotym]

www.handgunlaw.us is a new site with a lot of the same info as packing.org I think packing has stuff arranged a little differently.

Unfortunately reciprocity information isn't as easy to find on handgunlaw as on packing. I have a brother moving to seattle and one in Washington. would be great to see either of them accept ND permits.

 

[Firethorn]

I'm currently researching Arkansas, due to the complicated and mysterious method known as 'alphabetical'.

 

[Firethorn]

Maybe I should write Washington State about Texas now. That's the only place i'll be traveling where my current CHL is no good.

Go for it! What does it end up costing you? 40 cents for an actual letter, and it's free except for your time for email.

The only potential problem that I can see is that Washington statute requires that the background check include 'mental health' by way of fingerprints.

For example, I have lazy people in my AG office that don't want to push this. A serious case of 'the other side first'.

Nickotym,
ND's official recipicality website, unfortuantly, not updated yet.