Tubular Projectiles?

[Kager]

I know that PMC played with the concept of a tubular bullets with thier "Cyclone?" AP pistol bullets using a teflon wad to seal the base of the bullet until it exited the barrel.
Are these bullets still made by anyone?
Does anyone know what kind of BC the PMC bullet had?
And has anyone tried this with Rifle bullets?

Surely this would be one way to get high ballistic coefficients with light bullets? Admittedly the hardest thing would be getting reliable expansion/stablity. But it might make a good target/silhouette/varmint projectile in larger cals?
This might also be a solution for streamlined bullets in some tube mags?

Josh

 

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

The PMC "cookie-cutters" WERE a good idea. They shot very flat and fast, albeit to a rather lower point-of-aim. Don't remember 'em being offered in any kind of AP capacity, but I read the review of 'em some years ago.

I think they weighed something like 60 grains, and ran at some obscene velocity (1800 fps?) in standard-pressure .38 Special loads with very little recoil.

The bullet was a piece of solid bronze tubing that was beveled at the front edge like a plug cutter, and the back end was obturated with a lightweight synthetic plug. I saw pics of gel tests that indicated penetration in the range of 12"-16". The bullets didn't expand at all, but the sharpened front edge sliced l-o-o-o-n-g "worms" of gelatin out of he test blocks. Because the "worm" was actually sliced free of the surrounding tissue, the amount of bleeding wound surface area was supposed to be comparable to the permanent crush cavity formed by a more conventional bullet, with the advantage of drastically reduced recoil.

PMC olnly produced them for a couple of years, whereupon new laws against armor piercing handgun ammo prohibited bullets that had a composition or core of any hard material other than lead. That ruled out PMC's shiny bronze razor-rings, and they were pulled from store shelves.

Don't remember any BC numbers for these. They were really light, but had almost no frontal area, so I imagine they'd hold some of their velocity. I dunno, air rubbing on the sides of those aero-rings would still drag 'em down pretty quick.

The PMC's were only available as .38's IIRC, but no-one mentioned any sort of rifle rounds. I imagine they'd be so light-for-caliber, with "funny" aerodynamics, that Varmint-scale accuraccy might be problematical. They might want a unusual rifling twist rate for optimal stability, too, which would limit their applications.

Right on the face of it, the rings NEVER displayed any tendency for expansion, so for a hunting application I would think a more conventional design would hit harder at longer ranges, and do more damage along the path of bullet travel.

 

[roscoe]

THere are saboted shotgun slugs that are exactly like the PMC ammo, just larger.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I still have 7 or 8 of them that I bought in the 1980s in .380 ACP. Bronze tubes with sharp edges. The tip is black plastic for feeding reliability. Supposedly would cut a clean hole through the best soft body armor available, and then continue on out the back of the man wearing it. Causes more trauma than a round nose bullet, as it cuts through rather than slips through human tissue.

 

[Third_Rail]

I guess any hollowpoint with a large cavity, thick copper up front, and a sharp edge would cut through soft armor like that. No wonder no rounds are made like that.

 

[SDC]

The ORIGINAL PMC "UltraMags" were made out of bronze, which ended up being prohibted by the "Cop-Killer Bullet" ban, but they later came out with a solid copper version that was (and is) exempt: PMC ended up droping the design because they never sold well enough to justify continued production. There's a pic of one of the original rounds, between an FN 5.7x28 round and a Remington "Metal-Piercing" capped ball.

 

[thatguy]

Well, what are the odds? I went to a gunshow this morning and found a box of the PMC .38 Special tubular bullet ammo on a dealer's table. The box is marked 38J for product code and the bullet weight is given as 66 grains. It is marked +P, by the way. The box is in nearly perfect condition and there are 36 rounds left in it. I grabbed it for $5 and I am wondering if there is any value among ammo collectors for this stuff?

 

[Kager]

Hi Guys thanks for all the Info. I guess it was just one of those ideas that never caught on....

I wonder if they were also less prone to deflection than normal FMJ ball?

Roscoe; Do you remember what brand/type of Shotgun slug those critters were?


I can't be sure on this but I think I heard somewhere that the BATFmein used these bullets in their MP5s at Waco ????? but like I said, I could be totally wrong on this.

Hmmm I wonder if I could make up a couple on a lathe....

Thanks again,

Josh

 

[Mr. Clark]

I can't be sure on this but I think I heard somewhere that the BATFmein used these bullets in their MP5s at Waco ????? but like I said, I could be totally wrong on this.

I read that in Unintended Consequences. I think John Ross stayed pretty close to the facts in those scenes, but it was a work of fiction, so I don't know.

 

[cpileri]

idea

Would loading a gas check followed by a short piece of aluminum (or whatever, copper maybe) pipe of appropriate diameter mimic the original to some exent?
The gas check would surely separate in flight, but then what? would the tube keep flying true, or would it tumble and yaw widely?
Anyway, just an idea.
And you'd have to find the correct pipe to match projectile diameters.
C-

 

[Daniel Watters]

Here is one of the prototype .45 ACP tubular rounds.

 

[Jim March]

SDC: the top-left big green-tipped critter in that pic: is that some kind of...what, fin-stabilized 45-120 or something?

Looks very !

 

[daniel (australia)]

That PMC bullet is almost identical to the Krnka-Hebler tubular bullet of the late 19th century.

The US Government tested a number of versions in about 1894 in .30 US Government (Krag). There were several versions made to test various bullet construction, weight, shape and base wad parameters. One version for example used a streamlined steel bullet of 104 grains, with a copper driving band and fibre or metal discarding base cup, at a velocity of about 3000 fps.

There was also at least two versions in .45/70 tested at Frankford Arsenal at about the same time, with a 427 grain tubular bullet at 1600 fps.

 

[Daniel Watters]

SDC: the top-left big green-tipped critter in that pic: is that some kind of...what, fin-stabilized 45-120 or something?

It appears to be the 5.6x57mm XM645 cartridge, which was part of the SPIW program.

 

[Das Pferd]

Dont they sell something like this for muzzleloaders? I could swear there is a picture of one in a Cabellas magazine.

 

[Das Pferd]

AHA I finally found it.

While it does not have a sharp leading edge I am sure you could "modify" it.

http://www.jadaenterprise.com/

 

[SDC]

Jim, Daniel nailed it; it's an XM645 SPIW round, made by IVI in Canada for the SPIW program, at an average cost of $3.50 per round. They were firing these through prototypes at rates of fire up to 2000 rpm. They use what's known as a "puller sabot" to pull the fin-stabilized projectile out the muzzle, whereupon the paper and fibreglass sabot disintegrates.

 

[Kager]

Thanks Guys very interesting stuff, I also just found this
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/RAG.html

Regards
Josh