tula steel case 9mm has any kind of coating?

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The case has a polymer coating. People have taken a blowtorch to polymer coated cases and it hasn't melted off.

You are correct that bi-metal jackets will wear out a barrel slightly quicker than copper jackets, but with under 20k don't lose any sleep. There are pistol barrels with well over 100k rounds out in the world.

Also with the cost difference of about $20 per 1K case between steel cased, bi-metal and brass cased, copper jacketed ammo saves you about $400. You could buy four new Glock barrels or another Glock pistol.
 
All I can give is opinion here, I will not use steel case ammo in most guns, Ak47 yes. I do not like the coating on steel case ammo it will cause failure to feed
IMO. I simply do not see the savings in poor ammo.
 
Some time ago I did a comparison of the extractor groove in the casing of Tula 9mm ammunition vs. brass case American ammunition. There was a significant difference. Tula has a smaller area for the extractor to hook onto. Tula is less reliable than US ammunition. I suggest that you use a magnifying glass and do your own comparison.
 
When loading steel case ammunition in the clip, add a drop or two of oil (any oil will do) on the cartridge on the top. For my M92 Beretta, I was oiling every fifth round. Recently I shot my 9mm M92 Beretta, even though I was using brass cases, I wanted to test leading reduction with cast bullets. I have been oiling the rounds that I shoot in Bullseye Pistol. So far, I have shot around 5,000 45 ACP rounds in competition and all of the cases were well oiled. This allows me to cut my loads and yet still have reliable function. Oil breaks the friction between case and chamber, which leads to improved function reliability. It is desirable to break the friction between a steel case and chamber for it leads to improved extraction and lower stresses on the extractor. It also seems to be reducing the amount of leading I experience with cast bullets. I am so surprised by how little leading I am having in the 45 ACP, 9mm, and I also tried this in the 45 LC.

Oil gets in the magazine and inside the pistol. The oil drops I squeeze on the cartridge stack dribble all the way down the inside of the magazine. Due to this, I am getting to be very good at disassembling magazines and wiping the oil out of the insides. Oil on the case definitely goes up the barrel, as I demonstrated last week with my 9mm Beretta to a shooter at the range. Powder residue at the end of the muzzle is deposited in a star pattern, which corresponds to the grooves in the barrel. This residue was oily. So, oil that is on the case is blown forward and I believe, acts as a bullet lubricant. Oil also gets squeezed out the back of the case into the action, which is messy.

Anyway, if I was concerned about steel case wear, I would lube the cases in the magazine. Be aware this whole practice is messy and I have several shirts with oily hand prints that I have not been able to wash out yet.
 
I've put 20k rounds of (mostly) cheap Russian steel case ammo through my 3rd Gen Glock 19.
No issues with the ammo, other than the extractor channel getting filthy after thousands of rounds. This probably would have happened with any ammo. In any event, cleaning it annually is no biggie.
 
bullseyebob47..... but im not sure if it has a coating that would melt and make the chamber sticky....
No ammunition has a coating that makes the chamber sticky.....think about why that is.;)

It is a myth that the lacquer on old Combloc ammo or the polymer coating on recent production ammo would melt.....it doesn't.

Any "stickiness" that occurs is the result of carbon buildup due to the steel case. Steel cases do not expand and seal at the case mouth as well as brass....allowing carbon to flow back past the case mouth. It is not a problem on cartridges with more pronounced taper, but seems to be more problematic on cases with a straight case wall.


I run several thousand rounds of steel case through AR's and Glocks every year.....ZERO problems.



wingman All I can give is opinion here, I will not use steel case ammo in most guns, Ak47 yes. I do not like the coating on steel case ammo it will cause failure to feed
Nonsense.


IMO. I simply do not see the savings in poor ammo.
Its simple math. Read the Lucky Gunner article. :rolleyes:
 
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I've shot thousands of rounds of Wolf/Tula/WPA/etc. with no ill effects.

The only time I had a problem was with Brown Bear in my SR9 as the ammo would not feed reliably in the mags. Brown Bear is lacquer coated while the others are polymer coated. I would not buy Brown Bear again, but Silver Bear is excellent as it is zinc coated.

CTD will run sales on TulAmmo 9mm for $7.29 a box of 50. I'll take that savings. People will try to tell you that steel case ammo is hard on extractors and ejectors, that's manure.

With this being said, I only use steel cased polymer coated ammo at the range, if I were to enter a timed event like a 3-gun, I would use brass cased ammo.
 
Slamfire, lubing ammunition is a bad idea. Guns rely on the case expanding and gripping the chamber slightly to lessen the pressure on the bolt or slide then returning to allow extraction . It's called bolt thrust. If you lube your cases that can't happen. The bolt or breech face of the slide has to withstand more pressure than it was designed for. Lubing ammo also permits gases to come back through the bolt or slide at full pressure. Something will eventually break or you may get hit in the eye with a 35,000 psi jet of gas.

I don't use steel case ammo. However, I remember Peter Kokalis putting over 170,000 rds through a G17 without cleaning. He said most of it was steel case. He never had a malfunction with the gun either. I wouldn't worry about it.
 
It has a transparent polymerase membrane coating the ferrous substructure of the pressure containment unit (case) for corrosion prevention.
 
Slamfire, lubing ammunition is a bad idea. Guns rely on the case expanding and gripping the chamber slightly to lessen the pressure on the bolt or slide then returning to allow extraction . It's called bolt thrust. If you lube your cases that can't happen. The bolt or breech face of the slide has to withstand more pressure than it was designed for. Lubing ammo also permits gases to come back through the bolt or slide at full pressure. Something will eventually break or you may get hit in the eye with a 35,000 psi jet of gas.

No, I disagree. You have not tested this philosophy have you? You believe the case is strong and the action is weak, and oil will break the gun.

This fielded machine gun has an oiler on top. How do you reconcile your belief system and the existence of many self loading mechanisms that required grease or oiled cases to function?

Type 92 Japanese Machine gun,

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/type-92-japanese-hmg-at-james-d-julia/
 
There are far, far, less mechanisms requiring lubed cases than there were around 1900, but there are legacy cartridges from that era. One of the oldest is the 22 LR. Cheaper 22LR is covered with a wax from bullet tip to rim, that wax melts under the temperatures and pressures of combustion. The better, more expensive 22 LR, it is greasy from bullet tip to rim. Go out and buy a box of SK Standard Plus, Rifle Match, Eley Tennex, and feel the cartridges.

According to George Frost, in his book, Making Ammunition, aluminum case ammunition, the stuff sold as "Blazer" is coated with a wax to break the friction between case and chamber, just exactly as Pedersen did with his ammunition. Without the wax extraction forces would be increased. And just as Hatcher stated, you don't know that it is on the case. I am of the opinion that most of the factory ammunition I have is coated with a wax substance to keep the stuff shiny and bright on the shelf.

The FN 5.7 round is lubricated. Due to the histrionics that FN would have to put up with from the American shooting community if they said the round was lubricated, they call it a "polymer" coating. I think it is a combination of teflon and wax. By the way, grease is a polymer, oil is a polymer, wax is a polymer, telfon is a polymer. There are lots of things out there that are polymers. The general public is unable to make the connection between lubricants and polymers so FN is not lying, they are just relying on ignorance and lack of curiosity to keep the idiots happy in their delusions.

http://www.dayattherange.com/?page_id=3297

Journey Of Reloading The 5.7x28mm
The first thing to pay attention to is that the 5.7x28mm platforms are are blow-back operation. To facilitate this mechanism the cases are coated in a super-ultra-mega-secret-concoction of dry film lubricant. (Many attempts have been made to duplicate this coating and no one has been able to successfully do so, to the best of my knowledge.


Regardless, that coating has to be restored if the round is reloaded. I am of the opinion that some of the Kaboom's attributed to out of battery firing are infact, reloaded cases ripped apart because of insufficient lubricant. This round is a rather high pressure round, and a number of Kaboom's are also due to high pressure, but if the case lubricant is removed, the gun won't function.

Generally the mechanisms that required active lubrication of oils and greases have been superseded by chamber flutes. Chamber flutes reduce the part count and don't require an oil reservoir. Nor do they require pre greasing, as was done with the Oerlikon 20mm machine cannon. And then, grease attracts dirt which will score the chamber and barrel. But trillions of greased rounds were fired by the British, Americans, Germans, and maybe the Japanese. The big, rapid firing WW2 machine guns used on planes and ships tended to use greased rounds until the Russians came up with chamber flutes.

Ordnance Pamphlet 911, page 105

http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/gun20mm/part4.htm#pg105

ORDNANCE PAMPHLET NO. 911
20 mm. A.A. GUN

20 MM. MACHINE GUN MECHANISMS MARKS 2 AND 4
20 MM. GUN BARRELS MARKS 2, 3, 4, AND 4 MOD. 1
20 MM. SIGHTS MARKS 2, 4, 4 MOD. 1, AND 5
20 MM. MAGAZINES MARKS 2 AND 4
20 MM. SHOULDER RESTS MARKS 2, 4, 5 AND 5 MOD. 1
DESCRIPTION

MARCH, 1943



GREASING AMMUNITION

All 20 mm. A.A. Mark 2 and Mark 4 ammunition MUST BE COMPLETELY COVERED WITH A LIGHT COAT OF MINERAL GREASE BEFORE BEING LOADED INTO THE MAGAZINE.

The ammunition is usually packed greased. However, this grease tends to dry off. Whether cartridges are packed greased or not, they should be regreased before loading the magazine.


NOTE-A small amount of mineral grease, applied shortly before firing, to the cartridge case that is visible in the magazine mouthpiece, will assist in preventing a jam in the gun barrel.

Dry ammunition or ammunition with insufficient grease will jam in the gun chamber when fired and extraction will be very difficult, if not impossible. See Page 110 for use of torn cartridge extractor.


106

NOTE-Oil must not be used as a substitute for mineral grease.
Sufficient grease should be present on all cartridge cases to be easily felt by the fingers. An excess should be avoided.

CAUTION-Do not grease the rear end of the cartridge cases as the grease has a tendency to percolate inward past the percussion cap. NEVER USE OIL.


Of course the public has forgotten the 20 mm Oerlikon. This was a blow back cannon, used by the Navy from WW2 all the way through Vietnam. The majority of the shooting community knows very little of the history of firearms. One reference states that 150,000 of the things were made and were in service during WW2. MG Hatcher should have been very familiar with the things as they were in all Army Air Corp fighter planes (with cannons) and his Ordnance Department bought the things. The WW2 era cannons required greased ammunition to function or it would rip the case in half.


You can see at exactly 2:14 on this WW2 video a Sailor’s hand painting grease on the 20 mm ammunition loading machine for the Oerlikon anti aircraft machine guns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=9dR3h2HdnBQ
 
Slamfire, giving some isolated examples of lubing ammo as a practice is not convincing. The Japanese machine gun and 20 mm were designed to use lubricated ammo. A 22 is much lower pressure and easier to design a gun to contain that pressure. The lube used on 22 ammo is not dripping out the of the magazine either. A coating to prevent corrosion is a lot different than dripping from the magazine.

Every reloading manual tells you to remove all case lube. Do you have a manual for a Beretta 92 or 1911 that suggests lu bing ammo? I'd like to see it. Every manual I've seen cautions against lubing ammo. I reconcile my "belief" by the fact everyone but you suggests not lubing ammo.

As Cobra Junkie said if there were a benefit to lubing ammo we'd all be doing it. If lubing ammo as a common practice was such a benefit it would have been a common practice amongst the firearms community for years. Does the fact you seem to be the only one knowing this " secret" tell you anything?
 
The Japanese machine gun and 20 mm were designed to use lubricated ammo.

This is true, do you know why they decided to use lubricated ammunition? There had to be good reasons they decided to field machine guns that used lubricated cases. We know these mechanisms were either delayed blowback or just a blowback. I believe they used lubricated ammunition because of the simplicity of the mechanism, they got the parts count down for one thing. Also the cyclic rate was faster than locked breech mechanisms. We know that is true for the Oerlikon. It was one of the fastest single barrel anti aircraft guns around. Because it did not have a delay period for a turning bolt or locking mechanism it was very fast. Also, chamber headspace was not critical in any mechanisms that used oilers or grease. Instead of the case separating when there is excessive headspace, as what happens in a mechanism with a dry case and dry chamber, with oiled or greased cases, the case simply slides to the bolt face without the sidewalls stretching. That was very important as it made manufacture and barrel replacement easier. I think these are some of the reasons these were mechanisms were common before WW2.

But, something you are have not tried to answer, is what loads are firearms designed to support? How are Newton’s laws different between guns that were “designed” to use lubricated cases and those that were not “designed” to use lubricated cases. Are the case loads different? Are the bolt thrust loads different?

And, how much case friction do you want between case and chamber? How do you maintain that level of friction?


A 22 is much lower pressure and easier to design a gun to contain that pressure.

How are Newton’s laws different between rimfires and centerfire weapons?. How are either designed and what loads are they designed to take?


Every reloading manual tells you to remove all case lube.

This is an argument from authority. Why are these authorities right?
 
Slamfire, we are not shooting a Japanese machine gun or a 20mm. They used lubed ammo because that's the only way they could make them work.

Modern firearms are not designed to use lubed ammo. Bolt thrust load will be higher with lubed ammo. The laws of physics are the same. The hardware (guns) are designed differently. Guns are designed to handle industry standard loads. Thats why some manufacturers warn against using +P+ ammo.
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You maintain the friction in the chamber by designing it for industry standards.

The laws of physics are not different for 22s. You can have a lot more metal supporting a 22 case head vs a 45 case head. Do the math and see how much more area the 45 is. Also the lube used on 22's is not dripping out of the gun.

Why are authorities correct? I'll put my money on the ballistics and engineers that develop loads and design firearms any day.
 
Modern firearms are not designed to use lubed ammo.

I pointed out one at least. And, how about those roller bolts? They use gas lubrication, which is why oilers went away. What happens if the flutes are clogged?

Bolt thrust load will be higher with lubed ammo.

Yes, bolt thrust will be higher, and the load on the case will be less, and the load on the extractor will be less. Why do you want to stress the case and extractor if you don't have to? Which is weaker, the case or the bolt? Things are backwards if you assume the case is strong and the bolt is weak. It is the exact opposite, the case is weak and the bolt is strong. The bolt is designed to take the full thrust of the case, ignoring case friction.

You maintain the friction in the chamber by designing it for industry standards.

Which, again, you ignored. Just how much load is the case supposed to carry, through friction between the case and chamber. Which means, just how much load is the case supposed to take off the bolt lugs?

I am going to state that the case is not supposed to carry any load, the lugs are sized to carry the full thrust of the case ignoring any case friction. This is true for all mechanisms.

The laws of physics are the same. The hardware (guns) are designed differently. Guns are designed to handle industry standard loads. Thats why some manufacturers warn against using +P+ ammo.

Yes, the laws of physics are the same. Firearms are designed to carry the industry standard loads, and loads which exceed SAAMI specs over stress the barrel, case, and locking mechanism regardless of whether the case is lubricated or dry. If pressures are within SAAMI specs, than the locking mechanism is not stressed beyond design limits whether the case is dry or lubricated because the locking mechanism is designed to carry the full thrust of the case ignoring parasitic friction between the case and chamber.

In fact, for self loading mechanisms, friction between the case and chamber is undesirable as it leads to failures to extract. Which is why I recommended oiling steel cases if the desire is to reduce wear on the chamber and extractor. Breaking the steel on steel friction between case and chamber will increase function reliability. As it has been noted by others, and I have seen on the firing line, not all firearms function well with steel case ammunition, and one cause is, excessive friction between the case and chamber. Oiling cases is an ersatz solution in this regards, but it is better than poking cases out with a cleaning rod or tossing out the ammunition because it fails to extract dry.
 
I picked up a couple of cases of that ammo a couple of months ago and it's been fine. So far I've shot about 1500 rounds through a Glock 19, a couple of CZ's and a FNS 9c. It's nothing more than cheap range ammo.
 
To the OP:
I've shot exclusively Wolf, Brown Bear, and Tula in my Gen 3 Glock 19 for target practice since purchasing it over ten years ago. Several thousand bi-metal jacketed rounds through the Glock factory barrel; also no torn up extractor. It has fired approx 200 rounds of nickel/brass cased Winchester PDX1 just to prove my chosen SD load works, too. I think fellas here that shot pistols in the service (LEO/ Mil) are very biased towards using only brass cased ammo. I would be too if it were given to me for free on a monthly basis over several decades. :)

The steel cased cheap Russkie stuff works perfectly in Glocks. Myth BUSTED. Thanks.
 
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