GambJoe
Member
Turn in your guns cowboy. There's a new sheriff in town. Is that just a Hollywood myth. It was a popular plot line in many western movies that I grew up seeing. Any truth to it?
Turn in your guns cowboy. There's a new sheriff in town.
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armoredman
Member
Tombstone made it illegal under the Earps, somewhat as described in the movies. It was perfectly legal in all other Arizona towns at that time. I surmise this because the Tombstone law was grandfathered in until the 1980's, and there was no other town in AZ with such a law in place at the time of AZ becoming a state in 1912, or it, too, would have been grandfathered in. Other than that, this half of the Arizona Territory had no restrictions on open carry I am aware of at this time.
jfrey
Member
The vast majority of the stuff you saw in the cowboy movies was the figment of someone's imagination in Hollywood. If you don't believe it, ask yourself "Did you ever see Roy Rogers reload?" Apparently Earp never heard of the Second Amendment.
medalguy
Member
Most people in the "wild west" were struggling to make a living and usually didn't carry a sidearm on a daily basis with the exception of some cowboys, for protection. Farmers and such had no need for a gun, and probably most only owned a shotgun fot hunting. They didn't have enough money to buy ammo for practice or non-essential use.
Look at pictures taken in towns in the 1880-1890 period and most people had no guns visible.
Look at pictures taken in towns in the 1880-1890 period and most people had no guns visible.
mgregg85
Member
I've always wondered why so many of us(RKBA/gun enthusiasts) seem to almost revere the legend of the Earps. Watching that movie Tombstone just made me angry.
The Earps are perhaps the most famous gun control advocates in American history, they deserve our scorn not awe.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Farmers and ranchers then (as now) had almost a daily need for a gun. Keeping coyotes/wolves from calves or lambs and keeping rabbits out of the beans. One rabbit can decimate a bean crop in short order. Crows can ruin a corn crop. Squirrels can lay waste to seed corn(the only way farmers had seed for next year). A gun is an essential tool of the farmer.
The Old Fuff will now come to the defense of the Earps... 
To start with, they weren't behind the Tombstone ordinance, the town council was – and they had good reasons, not the least of which was that the business community wanted to rid the town of its “wild west” image so they could attracted investment and encourage migration of a less violent kind of population. Incidentally, Dodge City, Kansas had the same law, for the same reasons.
During the wilder days, certain individuals would come into the town, get drunk, and then ride up and down the streets shooting at anything that attracted their attention. Today we might call this a drive by shooting. Clearly this endangered residents, and if a stray bullet hit a gas lit lamp it could start a fire. In fact while it wasn’t shooting related, Tombstone’s central business area burned down not once, but twice.
Then the town’s Marshal, Fred White, was shot and killed (supposedly by accident) while trying to arrest a drunk and armed cowboy. Virgil Earp succeeded him in that office, and was the only Earp to hold that position. On rare occasions he would swear in his brothers Wyatt and Morgan as special (temporary) deputies. Virgil also held a commission as a Deputy United States Marshal, which Wyatt didn’t until much later after his older brother was seriously wounded during an ambush and put out of service.
Photographs taken in other frontier towns – as well as Tombstone – confirm that other then peace officers, people did not go around openly armed – and for that matter many lawmen didn’t either.
Concealed weapons? Quite possible in the case of some folks, but there is no evidence that this was commonly the case. An examination of Tombstone’s real history – as opposed to the “reel” one – shows that shooting incidents were few and far between, and within the city limits carrying personal hardware wasn’t necessary to insure personal safety – then or now. Any other perspective is more based on Hollywood then history.
To start with, they weren't behind the Tombstone ordinance, the town council was – and they had good reasons, not the least of which was that the business community wanted to rid the town of its “wild west” image so they could attracted investment and encourage migration of a less violent kind of population. Incidentally, Dodge City, Kansas had the same law, for the same reasons.
During the wilder days, certain individuals would come into the town, get drunk, and then ride up and down the streets shooting at anything that attracted their attention. Today we might call this a drive by shooting. Clearly this endangered residents, and if a stray bullet hit a gas lit lamp it could start a fire. In fact while it wasn’t shooting related, Tombstone’s central business area burned down not once, but twice.
Then the town’s Marshal, Fred White, was shot and killed (supposedly by accident) while trying to arrest a drunk and armed cowboy. Virgil Earp succeeded him in that office, and was the only Earp to hold that position. On rare occasions he would swear in his brothers Wyatt and Morgan as special (temporary) deputies. Virgil also held a commission as a Deputy United States Marshal, which Wyatt didn’t until much later after his older brother was seriously wounded during an ambush and put out of service.
Photographs taken in other frontier towns – as well as Tombstone – confirm that other then peace officers, people did not go around openly armed – and for that matter many lawmen didn’t either.
Concealed weapons? Quite possible in the case of some folks, but there is no evidence that this was commonly the case. An examination of Tombstone’s real history – as opposed to the “reel” one – shows that shooting incidents were few and far between, and within the city limits carrying personal hardware wasn’t necessary to insure personal safety – then or now. Any other perspective is more based on Hollywood then history.
There is an old photo of Tombstone with a sign right in the middle of main street that stated, "The open carry of firearms strictly prohibited within town boundries"
There were no restrictions to stashing your weapon CCW style.
The Earps justified the conflict with the cowboys because the cowboys were making brash and open threats while openly displaying their firearms on their persons.
I hope that clears things up before this thread degenerates into something boring,,,,
There were no restrictions to stashing your weapon CCW style.
The Earps justified the conflict with the cowboys because the cowboys were making brash and open threats while openly displaying their firearms on their persons.
I hope that clears things up before this thread degenerates into something boring,,,,
InkEd
Member
The events at the OK corral is still debated by many people. Some say it was more of a "shooting" than "shootout."
SleazyRider
Member
Tombstone today ...
Looks like a pretty peaceful place to me:
Looks like a pretty peaceful place to me:
Carl N. Brown
Member
Where there were such laws, sidearms were checked in on entry and picked up on exit. It was recognised that outside of town, personal protection was vital. There was no attempt in those days to deny ownership, just to control method and place of carry.
What is reel Hollywood (or dime novel) stuff are the formal, duel style showdowns, staple of countless oaters. Western shootouts were more likely to be ambush, with return fire if the ambuscade missed. Hardly as romantic as a face-to-face duel.
What is reel Hollywood (or dime novel) stuff are the formal, duel style showdowns, staple of countless oaters. Western shootouts were more likely to be ambush, with return fire if the ambuscade missed. Hardly as romantic as a face-to-face duel.
Owen Sparks
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Town was usually only a few blocks long in those days.
Farmers and ranchers then (as now) had almost a daily need for a gun.
The overwhelming choice of farmers and such was the single barrel shotgun for these daily tasks. Cheap compared to a Winchester or Colt and easier to hit with. Most folks in those days didn't make enough to buy ammo for practice.
The overwhelming choice of farmers and such was the single barrel shotgun for these daily tasks. Cheap compared to a Winchester or Colt and easier to hit with. Most folks in those days didn't make enough to buy ammo for practice.
jimmyraythomason
Member
It still pretty much is. My dad and his brothers had a single shot 12 bore shotgun(my nephew has it now) and a single shot .22 rifle(my brother has it now) and they weren't allowed to miss. All ammo was to be accounted for.
GambJoe
Member
One of those western authors I can't remember his name was on a talk show and said cowboys carried a large caliber revolver just in case when they were out on the range maybe dozing off they could fall off their horse, get tangled up in their stirrups and the horse could trample them to death. A revolver would remedy the situation.
It's interesting to see historians refer to the sears catalog for pricing on firearms. Maybe there was a thriving surplus gun market after the civil war. I would guess that a shotgun would be choice back then if I was a farmer. Probably a farm house being attacked where the settlers had multi lever guns and Colts would be a bit of an exageration too.
It's interesting to see historians refer to the sears catalog for pricing on firearms. Maybe there was a thriving surplus gun market after the civil war. I would guess that a shotgun would be choice back then if I was a farmer. Probably a farm house being attacked where the settlers had multi lever guns and Colts would be a bit of an exageration too.
hardworker
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I don't know what old timey frontiersman used for defense and hunting. I would bet however, that the constitutionality of those laws was not a top concern for those sheriffs and marshals trying to rein in the lawlessness of the old west.
One of the many reasons I no longer respect Virgil or Wyatt Earp. As I understand most western towns allowed carrying of guns, it was mostly the violent cow towns like Tombstone and Dodge that prohibited it, and its sad to see once again decent folk having rights violated for a few criminals.
Statistically w/ the few exceptions like Tombstone and Dodge, western towns where everyone had a gun and many carried were far safer than 'civilized' eastern towns like NY etc
Statistically w/ the few exceptions like Tombstone and Dodge, western towns where everyone had a gun and many carried were far safer than 'civilized' eastern towns like NY etc
docnyt
Member
But weren't they just enforcing the law against basically open carry? From what I understand, people could still carry under their coat, in what we now call concealed carry. There were just these blatantly carrying rascals that were already warned. But who knows what the real story was...
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Concealed carry was pretty rare back then as I understand it. Carrying concealed was considered rude and sneaky.
Since "town" usually just meant the bar and casino the majority of people carrying open in town were probably drunk.
It's hard to equate Tombstone's prohibition with something like DC or Chicago. People didn't live in "town" back then.
Rail Driver
Member
Old Fuff said:
That's the only statement you made that I have issue with. Everything else pretty much seems spot on from what I've read.
I have issue w/ any lawman who will violate the BOR etc because 'the law says so'
Ill have to check, many towns only banned open carry, tombstone didnt allow ANY carry, and other towns the law of no carrying only applied to outsiders/cowboys.
hers the law from Tombstone-
Ordinance No.9:
"To Provide against Carrying of Deadly Weapons" (effective April 19, 1881).
Section 1. "It is hereby declared to be unlawful for any person to carry deadly weapons, concealed or otherwise [except the same be carried openly in sight, and in the hand] within the limits of the City of Tombstone.
Section 2: This prohibition does not extend to persons immediately leaving or entering the city, who, with good faith, and within reasonable time are proceeding to deposit, or take from the place of deposit such deadly weapon.
Section 3: All fire-arms of every description, and bowie knives and dirks, are included within the prohibition of this ordinance."
Ill have to check, many towns only banned open carry, tombstone didnt allow ANY carry, and other towns the law of no carrying only applied to outsiders/cowboys.
hers the law from Tombstone-
Ordinance No.9:
"To Provide against Carrying of Deadly Weapons" (effective April 19, 1881).
Section 1. "It is hereby declared to be unlawful for any person to carry deadly weapons, concealed or otherwise [except the same be carried openly in sight, and in the hand] within the limits of the City of Tombstone.
Section 2: This prohibition does not extend to persons immediately leaving or entering the city, who, with good faith, and within reasonable time are proceeding to deposit, or take from the place of deposit such deadly weapon.
Section 3: All fire-arms of every description, and bowie knives and dirks, are included within the prohibition of this ordinance."
docnyt
Member
That ordinance is a great historical find.
Remember that movies were based on books and the books the movies were based on about the old west were pretty much romanticized fiction.
My great, great grandfather was constable (and owner of the general store) of a lumber town during the 1880s and 90s. Lumber towns in the north during those days were every bit as raucous as cow towns in the west were. The only time he ever carried a firearm was when a wanted train robber named Jack Smalley got off the train in his town after killing a railroad cop in Grand Rapids, Michigan. The robber went to a nearby house to visit a girlfriend. Great Grandpa fetched his shotgun and went to the house and told Smalley to come out. Smalley came to the door but wouldn't come out. Great Grandpa shot him through the door killing him. Subsequent accounts have the house surrounded by sheriffs' deputies and a big shootout occurring but that is not the case.
Point is, no big showdown, no big shootout or fast draw BS. I tend to believe most wild west shootouts were mostly drunken brawls gone bad. I also believe that most confrontations between lawmen and bad guys in the old west were mostly attempts at arresting them in which they resisted.
My great, great grandfather was constable (and owner of the general store) of a lumber town during the 1880s and 90s. Lumber towns in the north during those days were every bit as raucous as cow towns in the west were. The only time he ever carried a firearm was when a wanted train robber named Jack Smalley got off the train in his town after killing a railroad cop in Grand Rapids, Michigan. The robber went to a nearby house to visit a girlfriend. Great Grandpa fetched his shotgun and went to the house and told Smalley to come out. Smalley came to the door but wouldn't come out. Great Grandpa shot him through the door killing him. Subsequent accounts have the house surrounded by sheriffs' deputies and a big shootout occurring but that is not the case.
Point is, no big showdown, no big shootout or fast draw BS. I tend to believe most wild west shootouts were mostly drunken brawls gone bad. I also believe that most confrontations between lawmen and bad guys in the old west were mostly attempts at arresting them in which they resisted.
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