Twist rate and bullet weight 44 caliber

[D.B. Cooper]

I'm trying to find the best weigh projectile for my 44 cal Winchester 94, which has a 1:38 twist rate. 300 grn even at 1500 fps is quite poor. I've tinkered with some factory 240 and 200 grn cowboy loads (HSM brand) that have been okay but ho-hum.

I load a lot of 200 grn RNFP cast lead in 44 Special for my revolver (4" at 1:20) that I'm quite happy with. As I stated in another thread, Mo. Bullet Co. discontinued that, choosing to focu on a 240 gn SWC as their only .430 projectile. I currently have a modest supply of the 200 grn projectiles on hand.

Understanding that the slower the twist rate the lighter the bullet must be, I'm thinking about the best use of the projectiles available to me.

Has anyone had good luck loading 240 grn projectiles (SWC specifically) in a 1:38 twist barrel? That barrel is a hold over from the old days of the 44-40, which was originally designed, and most commonly produced, with a 200 grn projectile. I have a few lbs of Clays powder left, a maximum load of which in a 44 magnum case with a 200 grn bullet will roughly match an older, 44-40 load.

This would require me to have separate loads for rifle and revolve, which I absolutely did not want to do, but unless someone knows a way to get a 1:38 barrel to shoot 240s accurately...

 

[243winxb]

44 Magnum...

No luck in Marlin 1894 with 240 gr, with microgroove rifling. I blamed it on the type of rifling. Never tried lighter/shorter bullets.

Your Win should have better rifling. To get the 240 gr bullets to shoot accurately, velocity may need to be at maximum velocity? 1400 fps + & 15 BHN or harder. If you believe twist Rate Stability Calculators.

On paper, the shorter 200 gr bullet should work with a 38 twist? But not available from Mo. Bullet Co.

I just started casting Lee's 200 gr to try in the Revolver. Tried the old Lyman 42798 , 205 gr years ago in revolver. . Didn't work. But the Lee is larger in diameter.

Its the length of the bullet that matters most when matching to twist. .594" VS. .766"

 

[buck460XVR]

Most .44 magnum rifles have a larger bore diameter than .44 magnum handguns. Add this to the slower twist rate and you may have accuracy issues. Best accuracy with lead is generally fitting the bullet to the bore. Having two different bore diameters means having a hard time getting bets accuracy from both using the same size bullet. Many times folks shooting .44 mag rifles use larger diameter lead bullets than they do with their .44 mag handguns. Do you have issues with jacketed bullets?

 

[mdi]

I have 5, 44 Magnums; 3 revolvers, one Contender and one Puma. All 5 have done quite well with a Ranch Dog design 240 gr. and 265 gr. RNFP. My Puma has a larger groove diameter (.431"+) and IIRC a 1-30" twist. I size that one differently, .433", others are sized to .431"-.432". The bullet, cast from wheel weight to Lyman #2 works excellently in all 5 and my revolvers often shoot 11 or 12 BHN "Mystery Metal" quite accurately (I have gotten 1"-1 1/4" groups @20-25 from my Dan Wesson with the 265 gr RD bullet)...

For some reason, and I haven't determined why, SAAMI stated 44 Magnum rifle barrels are spec'd at .431". Once I slugged my Puma I have had much, much better results with cast bullets, sized appropriately...

 

[gotboostvr]

I'd wager its a bore diameter issue as well. No idea why they have separate specs, but they do. With lead bullets, fitment is everything.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

If you believe twist Rate Stability Calculators.

I didn't even know they existed.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Do you have issues with jacketed bullets?

Don't know. Never tried them.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

For some reason, and I haven't determined why, SAAMI stated 44 Magnum rifle barrels are spec'd at .431". Once I slugged my Puma I have had much, much better results with cast bullets, sized appropriately...

I'd wager its a bore diameter issue as well. No idea why they have separate specs, but they do. With lead bullets, fitment is everything.

I accidentally (well, it was from lack of knowledge of such things really) bought a box of .431 projectiles when I first start reloading again after just having bought the revolver and not yet having owned the rifle. They were crap in the revolver.

I should probably learn how to slug a barrel and slug my rifle, but if those barrels are known to be oversized, then I'm pretty much screwed. One gun or the other is not going to shoot right.

 

[buck460XVR]

Don't know. Never tried them.

The reason so many folks use jacketed is because they are the easiest to find accuracy with. You tell us that factory lead produced Ho-Hum accuracy, but what is that exactly? 3" @ 100 yards? Many times that's as good as a .44 rifle will get. I would try some factory 240 gr jacketed or even some of your own handloaded jacketed and see if accuracy improves. I would clean the barrel first as if your bullets have been undersized, you may have leading issues. Use bags or a sled to make sure it's the ammo/gun and not you.

This would require me to have separate loads for rifle and revolve, which I absolutely did not want to do, but unless someone knows a way to get a 1:38 barrel to shoot 240s accurately...

I own a coupla .44 rifles and a coupla .44 revolvers. Only ammo that is compatible between all of them is made with jacketed bullets, and are highly accurate in them all, using 240 grainers.

 

[gotboostvr]

I should probably learn how to slug a barrel and slug my rifle, but if those barrels are known to be oversized, then I'm pretty much screwed. One gun or the other is not going to shoot right.

Not exactly. My Accuracy load for both rifle and revolver was a 240gr XTP over a stout charge of IMR4227, and a firm roll crimp.

Jacketed does well in both barrels, and my Rossi at least shot acceptably well with MBC 240gr Lead SWC's, but they shot better in my 629's.

 

[mdi]

Buying cast lead bullets is a bit different than buying jacketed bullet. First ya gotta now your gun. Know the cylinder throat diameter. Know the groove diameter (when slugging note any restrictions/choke). If commercial cast bullets don't fit, or are too hard or have poor lube, they prolly won't work. Working up a charge for lead bullets is a bit more involved than jacketed too. To fast with a soft bullet may cause bullet skidding. Too light a load with too hard bullets may lead to leading the barrel (common with "hard cast" commercial cast bullets)...

I'd suggest getting a copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook. Check this site; http://www.lasc.us/castbulletnotes.htm. Look in at http://castboolits.gunloads.com/ for real life info/answer on all aspects of casting, loading and shooting cast lead bullets...

 

[D.B. Cooper]

So, everything 44 caliber is mostly wiped out online. I did see some 225 grn Hornady FTX, which I think is their Leverevolution projectile available. I doubt there is a snowball's chance in Hades of finding factory loaded 44 magnum ammo anywhere locally, but I'll give it a try and then order these and give them a try. As a side note, the Hodgdon reloading data for that projectile states the test bed was a 20" barrel with a 1:38 twist, so that is promising.

I also saw some PPU 180 grn RN FMJ projectiles available online, but those are .4285 diameter. If my rifle has an oversized bore, I don't think I want to go to a smaller projectile, even half a thousandth. The only other option I see is Barnes, either their TAC-XPD or their "Buster" which is essentially a WFN but all copper (which I would consider as an alternative to my 300 grn lead WFN bear rounds I make for my revolver. That may be a "best of both worlds" if I can drive it fast enough to overcome the slow twist. Not ready to take that on just now-too many other variables.

I'd rather not experiment too much because I don't want to burn up precious LP Magnum primers experimenting. I'd rather find some American Eagle or what have you just to see if there is an improvement.

 

[mdi]

I would think those .4285" bullets are designed/meant for 44-40 Winchester, nominal dia. .427"...

 

[bluetopper]

Try 180gr jacketed bullets with a max load of 2400 or H110.

 

[ciwsguy]

My late model Marlin 1894 (Remlin, 2018 mfg date) does not like factory .44 Magnums. I found that most factory .44 Magnums I have purchased contain 0.429 diameter jacketed bullets. At 50 yds shooting factory .429 bullets with aperture sights on a bench rest gave groups of about 8 inches. Horrible it was. Tried some of my hand loads with .430 jacketed bullets (both 180 grain and 240 grain) provided some improvement of the spread down to about 4 inches at 50 yards. I didn't seem to notice a spread difference in lighter bullets. Going to .431 diameter polymer coated lead reduced the dispersion to about 1-1/2 inches. I have read in the Marlin forums that Marlin 1894s like larger diameter bullets and .429 bullets don't work well in Marlin lever guns and my results pretty much reflected that. My Marlin has Ballard rifling since it is of later manufacture than the older Marlins that used microgroove rifling.

My recommendation is to try some .431 diameter polymer coated lead and load them to about 1100 FPS. That is where I saw a substantial improvement in accuracy with my lever gun.

Two bits............
ciwsguy

 

[D.B. Cooper]

My late model Marlin 1894 (Remlin, 2018 mfg date) does not like factory .44 Magnums. I found that most factory .44 Magnums I have purchased contain 0.429 diameter jacketed bullets. At 50 yds shooting factory .429 bullets with aperture sights on a bench rest gave groups of about 8 inches. Horrible it was. Tried some of my hand loads with .430 jacketed bullets (both 180 grain and 240 grain) provided some improvement of the spread down to about 4 inches at 50 yards. I didn't seem to notice a spread difference in lighter bullets. Going to .431 diameter polymer coated lead reduced the dispersion to about 1-1/2 inches. I have read in the Marlin forums that Marlin 1894s like larger diameter bullets and .429 bullets don't work well in Marlin lever guns and my results pretty much reflected that. My Marlin has Ballard rifling since it is of later manufacture than the older Marlins that used microgroove rifling.

My recommendation is to try some .431 diameter polymer coated lead and load them to about 1100 FPS. That is where I saw a substantial improvement in accuracy with my lever gun.

Two bits............
ciwsguy

Thanks for sharing.

Yeah, 4" @ 50 yrds is still 8 MOA. Totally insane. I wonder if I could use non coated projectiles and still get good results. Reason I ask is I saw plain cast lead 431 dia Lazer Cast projectiles at my LGS last week. Mo. Bullet is only making 430 dia bullets rightnow.

 

[forrest r]

FWIW:

Back in the 90's I had a marling micro-groove 1895 chambered in 44mag ( 1 in 38???). It shot the keith bullets ok (429421 lyman) t 44spl velocities. Switched over to the skeeter design cast bullets with the multiple lube grooves and gas checked bases nd that rifle came alive. It preferred the lighter 429215 (215gr) design over the heavier 255gr 429244. Last year I finely sold that single 255gr cavity lyman mold because it was their harder to find 431244 version. It cast a .431"/.423" bullet compared to the standard 429244 that casts a +/- .429" bullet.

The lyman 429215 mold that I had would only cast a .430" bullet max when using a hard alloy. I was lucky enough to find a H&G #142 mold that casts the same light bullet as the lyman mold


. Don't look like much but that h&g #142 casts a .431" 220gr swc and a 200gr swc hp.


I never really horsed any cast bullets in that marlin & pretty much stuck with loads using unique & that bullet pictured above. Never could get that rifle to do better than +/- 4" 10-shot groups @ 100yds with that buckhorn rear sight.

 

[Walkalong]

Most .44 magnum rifles have a larger bore diameter than .44 magnum handguns.

SAAMI stated 44 Magnum rifle barrels are spec'd at .431". Once I slugged my Puma I have had much, much better results with cast bullets, sized appropriately...

I had the same experience many years ago with a Winchester 94 in .44 Mag, but once I figured out the bore was around .431 and got bullets to fit, accuracy/leading with cast bullets fixed its self. It would always shoot jacketed fine, but lead was poor until I got bullets that fit the barrel. These days I would just get some coated bullets, preferably sized correctly. There are a number of outfits that can provide that these days.

 

[243winxb]

micro-groove

gas checked

The GC would seem to grip the rifling better?

 

[earlthegoat2]

Yeah, 4" @ 50 yrds is still 8 MOA. Totally insane. I wonder if I could use non coated projectiles and still get good results. Reason I ask is I saw plain cast lead 431 dia Lazer Cast projectiles at my LGS last week. Mo. Bullet is only making 430 dia bullets rightnow.

I would buy those. Quite a few if you can. That way you can try them out at .431 and then powder coat them to see if there is an improvement. My Marlin liked .432 bullets. It was a pretty gun but was too hard to get to shoot right. So down the road it went.

 

[243winxb]

44 Magnum. 200 gr lrnfp Lee.

200 grn RNFP cast lead

Hits real low on target , compared to 250 gr @ 25 yards out of my M29 8 3/8" bbl. Normal, but more then I expected.
* 700X @ 9.0 grs is producing flyers.
Alliant Unique @ 11.5 grs is grouping ok, but not great.
More testing needed.

If there is not a lot of sight adjustment on some firearms, the low bullet impact may be a problem?

*NOTE: Trying 700X because I have it left over from shotgun loading.

 

[PapaG]

44 Magnum...

No luck in Marlin 1894 with 240 gr, with microgroove rifling. I blamed it on the type of rifling. Never tried lighter/shorter bullets.

Your Win should have better rifling. To get the 240 gr bullets to shoot accurately, velocity may need to be at maximum velocity? 1400 fps + & 15 BHN or harder. If you believe twist Rate Stability Calculators.

On paper, the shorter 200 gr bullet should work with a 38 twist? But not available from Mo. Bullet Co.

I just started casting Lee's 200 gr to try in the Revolver. Tried the old Lyman 42798 , 205 gr years ago in revolver. . Didn't work. But the Lee is larger in diameter.

Its the length of the bullet that matters most when matching to twist. .594" VS. .766"

View attachment 963805

My 60s Win 94 44 mag has rifling that looks just like Marlins. It shoots jacketed just fine. Cast, only up to about 1100 fps.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I would buy those. Quite a few if you can. That way you can try them out at .431 and then powder coat them to see if there is an improvement. My Marlin liked .432 bullets. It was a pretty gun but was too hard to get to shoot right. So down the road it went.

Well, one, the bullets are already lubed. Two, I'm not set up to do my own powder coating. Good idea though.

 

[horsey300]

Well, one, the bullets are already lubed. Two, I'm not set up to do my own powder coating. Good idea though.

Rimrock makes a 250 gr (iirc) that can be ordered in .431
Penn makes em up to .432
https://www.pennbullets.com/44/44-caliber.html
Good luck sir!

 

[ciwsguy]

Thanks for sharing.

Yeah, 4" @ 50 yrds is still 8 MOA. Totally insane. I wonder if I could use non coated projectiles and still get good results. Reason I ask is I saw plain cast lead 431 dia Lazer Cast projectiles at my LGS last week. Mo. Bullet is only making 430 dia bullets rightnow.

You might want to consider Montana Bullet Works or Acme lipstick polymer coated bullets. Montana bullet works makes cast bullets which you can order to 0.432, and I’ve also seen gas checked bullets in their on-line catalog. Acme bullets come polymer coated and mic at 0.431 inches even though their web site specs them at .430. My micrometer measured .431 consistently. I find the .431 polymer coated bullets work quite well in my rifle.

Ordering non-stocked bullets takes time these days. I understand it’s up to 12 weeks lead time if not in stock.
Since your original post mentioned desire to share same ammo between rifle & pistol, I can’t really compare my experience to yours as I have no .44 magnum handgun. Thought about it but .44 magnum out of a handgun can be a brutal experience which I don’t want. I load my hand loads to .44 special levels or light .44 magnum. You may be stuck with sticking to .430 jacketed bullets.